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[Rick C. Hodgin]

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[Rick C. Hodgin]

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[Goldgar]

One thing I will say about all of the research I've done to date, including videos, online forum reading, speaking with my instructor (Maestro Val Kizik), is that much of what is seen today as "modern fencing" has lost a significant component of what was seen 50+ years ago. Form and technique have been replaced with quick, less accurate actions designed for the sole purpose of looking to score a touch. It seems this is not the way it should be fundamentally.

Discussions of how fencing *should* be tend to be lively, except that people here have seen enough of them that they often don't even want to talk about it again. FWIW, there's considerable disagreement about whether competitive fencing "in the old days" lived up to its own espoused standards of form, even aside from the question of whether those standards represent "true fencing".

I'd say that modern competitive fencing tends to focus more on timing, tactics, and speed than on complex bladework. Whether that represents a departure from, or a return to, "true fencing" -- or whether the question is totally irrelevant -- is a matter for debate. I'd suggest, though, that if you come into this particular forum saying, "Modern fencing stinks; it's not like it was in the good old days," you're going to find it an unfriendly house.

[kalivor]

Form and technique have been replaced with quick, less accurate actions designed for the sole purpose of looking to score a touch. It seems this is not the way it should be fundamentally.

What is less accurate about a more successful action?

If previous form and technique failed to score a given touch, but modern "less accurate actions" do score a touch, is it correct to term the new techniques less accurate?

Also, where are these 50-year-old videos which show fencing with much superior technique to that on display by the folks in, say, this video?: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p6qswjYNTbI

The 50-year-old stuff I find at first glance - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2F3tM5YXv1U & http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PP_Dr...eature=related - does not appear to be significantly different.

[Rick C. Hodgin]

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[prototoast]

And to be honest, I don't see how any person could "feel out their opponent" in this regard without having some real fencing taking place (swordplay), more than just lead up, a few exchanges, then a quick touch. In my mind, a person could not get a feel for their opponent's abilities without 10 to 15 (or more seconds) of real swordplay. I'm reminded of that scene in The Princess Bride where Mandy Patankin's character is "fighting" Cary Elwes' character, and makes the comment after much swordplay that his opponent was a better swordsman than he was. And his opponent asked why he was laughing, and Mandy's character said "Because I know something you don't know. I'm not left handed," and switched.

You say you're a computer programmer. How often have you seen a movie accurately depict computer programming?

[Rick C. Hodgin]

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[Rick C. Hodgin]

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[kalivor]

The observations I've made come from watching fencing matches, comparing what I see there (with my untrained eye) to the training videos which emphasize form extensively (with many coaches saying something like: do not to sacrifice form for convenience), along with some commentary I've listened to (on various YouTube videos, some of which were professionally made by news channels in coverage preparation or wrap-around for tournaments) which speak about the various controversies currently in place as to the "fundamental nature" of the sport.

Additionally, all of this was coupled to a question Maestro Val Kizik asked me. He said, "Rick, what is it you want out of fencing?"

I had in mind the idea of becoming technically proficient, accurate and proper in all techniques, as much as is possible with my abilities. I wasn't greatly concerned about winning matches, but wanted to proceed from that desire: to be exceedingly accurate in form, style and understanding, figuring the rest would naturally follow (winning matches, defeating opponents, etc.).

I already had some of these ideas formed in mind, namely that the tournament fencing matches I've seen look more like the opponents need to move very quickly score a touch--that being their primary goal, and at the expense of proper form or technique.

Well, I can't really comment on the YouTube commentary (as I have not necessary seen it), but there is a difference between fencing in a training video, fencing in film or on stage, fencing in local competitions, fencing in national competitions, and world class fencing.

Certainly training videos would feature actions that are performed more slowly and accurately than real world competitive examples. And certainly speed is important in competitive fencing, and sometimes fencers sacrifice technique for speed.

The most successful fencers combine technique and speed. And it is far easier to add speed to good technique than good technique to speed, so your approach sounds like a healthy one.

In my view, while this may result in more touches and won tournaments, I cannot help but feel in my bones that any "true desire to fence" should be about something more, about desiring to "master" the sport, as it were, to become an authority in it, as technically proficient as possible, anticipating and responding correctly to various opponents' styles, recognizing them for what they are, and adapting by using improvisation based upon the foundational principles.

This is something many people feel passionate about. But you also have to recognise that some just want to "play with swords", or find it an entertaining way to get some exercise.

And to be honest, I don't see how any person could "feel out their opponent" in this regard without having some real fencing taking place (swordplay), more than just lead up, a few exchanges, then a quick touch. In my mind, a person could not get a feel for their opponent's abilities without 10 to 15 (or more seconds) of real swordplay. I'm reminded of that scene in The Princess Bride where Mandy Patankin's character is "fighting" Cary Elwes' character, and makes the comment after much swordplay that his opponent was a better swordsman than he was. And his opponent asked why he was laughing, and Mandy's character said "Because I know something you don't know. I'm not left handed," and switched.

I realize that's a movie, but it seems to me to be the way any two opponents in any activity "feel each other out," by testing them as it were. I just haven't seen that in the tournaments I've watched to date, and maybe I just haven't seen the right ones--after all, Darth Vader was able to say "The force is with you, young Skywalker. But you are not a Jedi yet," before their light sabers even crossed.

Again, I say I may be completely off-base in all of these thoughts though. And I'm not above admitting I'm wrong in this if I am, nor of receiving coaching or guidance contrarily. I have NO background or experience from which to speak. Zero in fact. Just an eye to see what I think I see when I watch the various things I've indicated.

But to be clear: I'm not here to offend anybody. While I have these foundations in my mind, that's all they are: my initial estimations made from limited observation and an untrained, unskilled eye. I could be completely wrong in all of it.

Leaving the movie moments aside, you will likely find that a large number of fencers on the local/national/international scene have fenced each other often before. They do not need much of a feeling out period.

There is also video, watching previous pool bouts and watching the elimination bout that determines who you will fence next. Conversations with your coach regarding observations, strategy and tactics.

There is trying to take advantage of a perceived weakness noted during these observations, resulting in quick starts to bouts. There is trying to cover up a perceived weakness in one's own fencing that the opponent could capitalise upon, via aggression and pressuring the other fencer.

Complete unknowns (such as the two fencers in the Princess Bride) do not exist on the fencing strip. And movie bouts are nearly always duels -- in a 15 point fencing bout, I am quite happy to be down 6-2, so long as I have learned about my opponent and set up my strategy for the rest of the bout. Sometimes those quick touches *are* the feeling out.

[Rick C. Hodgin]

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