Hypothetical sabre situation

[PeterGustafsson]

Hi!

Imagine the following situation in sabre. It is very loosely based on reality, but I have put in a big helping of literary license, in order to pull things to their extremes and get a more interesting discussion.

You are a referee at a local sabre competition, with 17 competitors, 16 go to 1st DE. All are ranked U, and what is more, none have more than 1 year’s training experience, most less than a half. Two fencers stand out - they are much taller than the rest, built like size XL Neanderthals, righties both. They are teammates, and their fellow teammates call them “Axeman” and “Big Bruno”. You hear talk of them beating the c**p out of each other, but you decide that that is just talk, since you see them in poules against much smaller competitors, and they are not brutal. Their technique stinks, but since they have much longer reach than their opponents (most of which don’t have all that good technique either) and have somewhat mastered the “cuff-tickler” both make it to DE, ranked 9th and 8th, respectively. Thus, they will meet in the 1st DE.

In the pause between poules and DE, you see them talk to each other, it seems to be friendly banter. When their DE is about to start – with you as referee - their teammates start to gather about the piste. You hear their comments: “this is going to be trainwreck!”, “back off!”, and similar stuff. Axeman presents his first weapon for inspection. There is a deep dent in the bell, deep enough for a tip to get caught in. You disallow this weapon. Big Bruno offers the explanation: during friendly bouting last week, they got caught in infighting, and the edge of his bell bumped against Axeman´s bell, causing the dent. A quick look at Big Bruno’s arm muscles indicates that this is indeed possible. Unfazed, Axeman forks up the dough to a dealer standing nearby, and buys a weapon in mint condition.

You put them on guard. On “Allez”, they charge, and cut each other with enormous swing cuts that make you wince, and would have reduced ordinary men to crying blobs of flesh. They, however, don’t seem to notice, and continue after the double light for a second until you shout “Halt”. Afraid that this could turn ugly, you sternly admonish them that vindictive fencing is strictly prohibited, and you will use cards next time. They sheepishly state that they did not notice that they had been cut in the first instance, and that they continued to fence out the phrase, or so they thought. You find this explanation disingenuous at best, but since they agree and there does not seem to be any bad blood, you give them the benefit of doubt. Simultaneous attack, no point allowed.

What you see immediately afterwards shows that they were telling the truth – neither has any concept of pain, and their blades are all over the place, so they often don’t notice if they hit, or have been hit. Colored lights go off regularly (as is the case with sabre) so points are being racked up, even if the double-light situations are difficult to interpret due to their messy phrases. They are evenly matched. The only rules problem is that they continue their friendly banter on the strip, so you have to tell the to get on with fencing. Most of their cuts are swing cuts, delivered from back muscles, shoulder and elbow, the sabre held stiffly in the hand. Many of these land with shoulder and elbow not fully extended, and the joints get extended after the cuts land. This does not seem to bother either of them in the least. Due to their inexperience, it often happens that one of them is not looking at the right thing and is caught with an untensed arm. In their club bouting, they have learned to take advantage of this: a single light can be obtained by “parrying” against the arm – a big cut against someone who is caught unawares, landing on his forearm, pushes the opponent’s weapon hand out of way so that he can not counter-cut. First Big Bruno does this, and immediately after Axeman returns the favor.

Halfway through the DE, something truly unusual happens. Axeman dive-lunges, and delivers a swing cut that sounds like a thunderclap against Big Bruno’s left side of the ribcage. This swing cut started out with his right hand beside his left ear, and elbow pointing straight forward. During the dive-lunge, Axeman somehow manages to forget his left arm, so it is left up while the rest of his body goes forward and down. Big Bruno had seen the wind-up of this swing cut, and tried a counter-cut. Since Axeman dived, all Big Bruno manages to do is a massive swipe across the back of the fingers of Axeman’s left hand. When the forte of Axeman’s blade lands on Big Bruno’s left side, it snaps, leaving Axeman standing with 6 inches sticking out from the bell of his broken weapon. His problems do not end there: the remainder of the blade spin away, landing in his bag and ripping up the wires to contact of his backup weapon. Axeman looks sheepishly at his weapon and stutters: “ Uh… sorry Bruno… guess…” You see the single light on the box, call halt and figure out what to do. Bruno replies to Axeman: “No problem – that is what I get for standing still. Look at your hand!” Everyone now looks at Axeman’s left hand - his fingers are now bleeding profusely. Axeman was so psyched up so that he had not noticed. Axeman now realizes that he has no working weapons, his fingers are a minor problem. He is not aware of the third problem – you are contemplating giving him a black card for intentional brutality. While you are thinking over the situation, Big Bruno helps Axeman out – he gets out a roll of Band-Aid (turns out it was in his bag for a reason) and lends Axeman his backup weapon.

What to do? Do you black card Axeman for intentional brutality, card Big Bruno for causing bleeding, tell both to rein it in, or let them maul each other since they are obviously not vindictive, and evenly matched?

Have a nice time!

Peter Gustafsson

BTW: This year’s funny Christmas mishap – thought I might share. ;-)
Nuts are a staple of Swedish X-mas food, and I have a thing for Brazil nuts. Problem is that they are the hardest nuts around. I was cracking Brazil nuts in an ordinary nutcracker (two metal bars joined by a hinge, nut is placed between the bars close to the hinge, bars are grasped at the ends for leverage) and reading the paper at the same time, not looking at the nutcracker. Suddenly I felt the bars move, but it did not feel like the usual way. I heard a snap, but it did not sound like the usual sound of a breaking nut. Then I looked at the nutcracker. I had broken one of the metal bars and draped it around the Brazil nut – which was intact! Some of those sure are tough. ;-)

[Chris]

Originally posted by PeterGustafsson
Hi!

Imagine the following situation in sabre. It is very loosely based on reality, but I have put in a big helping of literary license, in order to pull things to their extremes and get a more interesting discussion.

You are a referee at a local sabre competition, with 17 competitors, 16 go to 1st DE. All are ranked U, and what is more, none have more than 1 year’s training experience, most less than a half. Two fencers stand out - they are much taller than the rest, built like size XL Neanderthals, righties both. They are teammates, and their fellow teammates call them “Axeman” and “Big Bruno”. You hear talk of them beating the c**p out of each other, but you decide that that is just talk, since you see them in poules against much smaller competitors, and they are not brutal. Their technique stinks, but since they have much longer reach than their opponents (most of which don’t have all that good technique either) and have somewhat mastered the “cuff-tickler” both make it to DE, ranked 9th and 8th, respectively. Thus, they will meet in the 1st DE.

In the pause between poules and DE, you see them talk to each other, it seems to be friendly banter. When their DE is about to start – with you as referee - their teammates start to gather about the piste. You hear their comments: “this is going to be trainwreck!”, “back off!”, and similar stuff. Axeman presents his first weapon for inspection. There is a deep dent in the bell, deep enough for a tip to get caught in. You disallow this weapon. Big Bruno offers the explanation: during friendly bouting last week, they got caught in infighting, and the edge of his bell bumped against Axeman´s bell, causing the dent. A quick look at Big Bruno’s arm muscles indicates that this is indeed possible. Unfazed, Axeman forks up the dough to a dealer standing nearby, and buys a weapon in mint condition.

You put them on guard. On “Allez”, they charge, and cut each other with enormous swing cuts that make you wince, and would have reduced ordinary men to crying blobs of flesh. They, however, don’t seem to notice, and continue after the double light for a second until you shout “Halt”. Afraid that this could turn ugly, you sternly admonish them that vindictive fencing is strictly prohibited, and you will use cards next time. They sheepishly state that they did not notice that they had been cut in the first instance, and that they continued to fence out the phrase, or so they thought. You find this explanation disingenuous at best, but since they agree and there does not seem to be any bad blood, you give them the benefit of doubt. Simultaneous attack, no point allowed.

What you see immediately afterwards shows that they were telling the truth – neither has any concept of pain, and their blades are all over the place, so they often don’t notice if they hit, or have been hit. Colored lights go off regularly (as is the case with sabre) so points are being racked up, even if the double-light situations are difficult to interpret due to their messy phrases. They are evenly matched. The only rules problem is that they continue their friendly banter on the strip, so you have to tell the to get on with fencing. Most of their cuts are swing cuts, delivered from back muscles, shoulder and elbow, the sabre held stiffly in the hand. Many of these land with shoulder and elbow not fully extended, and the joints get extended after the cuts land. This does not seem to bother either of them in the least. Due to their inexperience, it often happens that one of them is not looking at the right thing and is caught with an untensed arm. In their club bouting, they have learned to take advantage of this: a single light can be obtained by “parrying” against the arm – a big cut against someone who is caught unawares, landing on his forearm, pushes the opponent’s weapon hand out of way so that he can not counter-cut. First Big Bruno does this, and immediately after Axeman returns the favor.

Halfway through the DE, something truly unusual happens. Axeman dive-lunges, and delivers a swing cut that sounds like a thunderclap against Big Bruno’s left side of the ribcage. This swing cut started out with his right hand beside his left ear, and elbow pointing straight forward. During the dive-lunge, Axeman somehow manages to forget his left arm, so it is left up while the rest of his body goes forward and down. Big Bruno had seen the wind-up of this swing cut, and tried a counter-cut. Since Axeman dived, all Big Bruno manages to do is a massive swipe across the back of the fingers of Axeman’s left hand. When the forte of Axeman’s blade lands on Big Bruno’s left side, it snaps, leaving Axeman standing with 6 inches sticking out from the bell of his broken weapon. His problems do not end there: the remainder of the blade spin away, landing in his bag and ripping up the wires to contact of his backup weapon. Axeman looks sheepishly at his weapon and stutters: “ Uh… sorry Bruno… guess…” You see the single light on the box, call halt and figure out what to do. Bruno replies to Axeman: “No problem – that is what I get for standing still. Look at your hand!” Everyone now looks at Axeman’s left hand - his fingers are now bleeding profusely. Axeman was so psyched up so that he had not noticed. Axeman now realizes that he has no working weapons, his fingers are a minor problem. He is not aware of the third problem – you are contemplating giving him a black card for intentional brutality. While you are thinking over the situation, Big Bruno helps Axeman out – he gets out a roll of Band-Aid (turns out it was in his bag for a reason) and lends Axeman his backup weapon.

What to do? Do you black card Axeman for intentional brutality, card Big Bruno for causing bleeding, tell both to rein it in, or let them maul each other since they are obviously not vindictive, and evenly matched?

Have a nice time!

Peter Gustafsson

BTW: This year’s funny Christmas mishap – thought I might share. ;-)
Nuts are a staple of Swedish X-mas food, and I have a thing for Brazil nuts. Problem is that they are the hardest nuts around. I was cracking Brazil nuts in an ordinary nutcracker (two metal bars joined by a hinge, nut is placed between the bars close to the hinge, bars are grasped at the ends for leverage) and reading the paper at the same time, not looking at the nutcracker. Suddenly I felt the bars move, but it did not feel like the usual way. I heard a snap, but it did not sound like the usual sound of a breaking nut. Then I looked at the nutcracker. I had broken one of the metal bars and draped it around the Brazil nut – which was intact! Some of those sure are tough. ;-)

Sadly, (except for the part where the guy's weapon gets damaged in his bag - of course, with these guys, there's no reason to beleive that they couldn't have broken a blade earlier, as well, in a non-card situation, except that it doesn't quite seem like there is such a thing with these guys!) this hypothetical situation sounds pretty real to me!

I would just start handing out cards for brutal hit (it doesn't have to be intentional, nor vindictive), and not sweat the details of this particular exchange.

[Capt. Slo-mo]

Originally posted by PeterGustafsson
You put them on guard. On “Allez”, they charge, and cut each other with enormous swing cuts that make you wince, and would have reduced ordinary men to crying blobs of flesh. They, however, don’t seem to notice, and continue after the double light for a second until you shout “Halt”. Afraid that this could turn ugly, you sternly admonish them that vindictive fencing is strictly prohibited, and you will use cards next time.

First, you could start off with yellow cards for each, cite them for "disorderly fencing"...especially if you see a train wreck coming, as seems to be the case here. Don't even bother with a warning.

QUOTE]Originally posted by PeterGustafsson
What you see immediately afterwards shows that they were telling the truth – neither has any concept of pain, and their blades are all over the place, (snip) Most of their cuts are swing cuts, delivered from back muscles, shoulder and elbow, the sabre held stiffly in the hand. Many of these land with shoulder and elbow not fully extended, and the joints get extended after the cuts land. (snip) First Big Bruno does this, and immediately after Axeman returns the favor.[/QUOTE]

Now you see they just aren't getting it. When one delivers a blow from behind the back, pull a second group red card for dangerous, violent or vindictive fencing.

QUOTE]Originally posted by PeterGustafsson
Halfway through the DE, something truly unusual happens. Axeman dive-lunges, and delivers a swing cut that sounds like a thunderclap against Big Bruno’s left side of the ribcage. (snip) When the forte of Axeman’s blade lands on Big Bruno’s left side, it snaps, leaving Axeman standing with 6 inches sticking out from the bell of his broken weapon.[/QUOTE]

Now, you pull the black card on Axeman to augment the previous half dozen red cards that seemed to not make an impression: fourth group, deliberate brutality. Match is over.

QUOTE]Originally posted by PeterGustafsson
His problems do not end there: the remainder of the blade spin away, landing in his bag and ripping up the wires to contact of his backup weapon.[/QUOTE]

I hate to be a wet blanket here to an otherwise entertaining story, but exactly WHERE on a sabre do you find "contact wires?"

At this point, the stop cut to Axeman's hand causing the bleeding seems like a form of karmic justice...you can't fault Bruno for hitting a unprotected hand in the target area.

This is actually a good example of how a referee can let a hack fest get out of control. If two big hitters, (on conversely, a big hitter and a small victim) are allowed to land "Hammer of Thor" type blows with nothing done, eventually someone will get hurt. If the referee has the gumption to step in early, perhaps the pain can be avoided. We've already had this discussion, so I won't flog it anymore.

[magma]

teach them epee,

chris steed

[swordsen]

video tape the match for the next episode of "When Animals Attack" on the fox network......

[Dalton]

Truly hypothetical, Swedish epeeist... The Swedes are know world-wide for their wimpy cutting. Sweden is the only country I have been to where they hand out cards for brutality each time you make a through-cut.

Stick to imagining epee-situations, I say!

[veeco]

From your description, I would say don't card them and let them go at it. After all, they are sabreurs, so it's not like they don't like to get a good wacking every once in a while; they signed up for it, right?! ;-)

It seems like they are fencing this way only when facing each other, so they are only hurting themselves and not putting anybody else in danger.

Once one gets relatively seriously injured either he will quit fencing or realize that he needs to learn to fence with a little more finesse.

[Inquartata]

Card away. If they are ONLY doing this against each other, not against the rest of the fencers at the competition, then it is clear that they CAN fence properly, hence the behavior IS intentional when matched against each other. A stern admonishment or two might be warranted, along the lines of "I don't care if neither of you mind being thumped, it's still contrary to the rules". After that, card away.

"Experience keeps a dear school, but fools will learn in no other".

[Capt. Slo-mo]

Originally posted by veeco
From your description, I would say don't card them and let them go at it. After all, they are sabreurs, so it's not like they don't like to get a good wacking every once in a while; they signed up for it, right?! ;-)

Well, there's good whacking, and then there's bad whacking. I have to say the worst bruises I've received in fencing have been from epee. Go figure.

Originally posted by veeco
It seems like they are fencing this way only when facing each other, so they are only hurting themselves and not putting anybody else in danger.

Once one gets relatively seriously injured either he will quit fencing or realize that he needs to learn to fence with a little more finesse. [/B]

That's a line of reasoning that enables heavy hitters to get worse. The problem is that most big hitters don't just save it for other heavy hitters, they spread the joy around. It's usually the other fencer that gets hurt.

[sabreur]

I really dislike heavy-handed sabre--it detracts from the game and leads to all sorts of problems--not the least of which is that better, but more timid, fencers become even more timid and lose bouts they should win.

Even if the two hammer-hands are only flailing each other, they intimidate other fencers in the competition.

I think you have to call brutality, card it, and exclude the fencers if they persist.

Otherwise they will persist.

Cheers, MR

[veeco]

Originally posted by Capt. Slo-mo

That's a line of reasoning that enables heavy hitters to get worse. The problem is that most big hitters don't just save it for other heavy hitters, they spread the joy around. It's usually the other fencer that gets hurt.

All I'm saying is, maybe once they get a healthy dose of their own medicine they will learn to fence, errr... more tactfully?

This is of course assuming that they learn by trial and error, which might not be the case.

At any rate, I am not sure cards are going to change their behavior anyway. There are people who just get into fencing for the pleasure of hitting people with a sword, and the only thing we can say for sure is that these people will quit once the novelty factor wears off. As far as the situation at hand, I would argue that as a coach I certainly would not send anyone from my club who fences like that to a competition. It makes for bad publicity for the club.

[Chris]

Originally posted by veeco
All I'm saying is, maybe once they get a healthy dose of their own medicine they will learn to fence, errr... more tactfully?

NO! It WON'T!!!


They have learned (taught each other) that this sort of behavior is acceptable.

This is of course assuming that they learn by trial and error, which might not be the case.

Obviously, they have NOT!

At any rate, I am not sure cards are going to change their behavior anyway. (snip) As far as the situation at hand, I would argue that as a coach I certainly would not send anyone from my club who fences like that to a competition. It makes for bad publicity for the club.

Yes, it does, but, in the USFA, a coach cannot keep you from going to a competition; only if you are in a school program, or in some arrangement where you would need club gear, and that can be denied. Obviously, a coach can kick someone out of their club, and communicates this to Local, and National tournament organizers.

(In the USFA) The guy can continue to enter tournaments and fence, until he gets black carded and ejected from the tournament. This definitely DOES change his behavior, since he's not in the tournament anymore to be behaving. If a fencer is blacked carded in a punitive manner (i.e. not for simply failing to appear on strip when called, unless this is a habitual thing), fencer exclusion should usually be reported to National office, as there are escalating sanctions that may be imposed, barring them from competitions for extended periods of time.

[Mo]

It should be the coach's responsibility to make sure that fencers learn to fence correctly. Why are they even fencing if they have no idea how to do it?

When my daughter first started fencing there was this kid who hit off target CONSTANTLY and gave her the biggest dark bruises across her thighs. He did it over and over. The coach said, "I cannot poot ***** een da box, he must learn him self." Finally, after my daughter changed into shorts one day with her bruises showing, his MOTHER had a hissy fit. She told her son she did not care why he was doing it, or how sorry he was that he was doing it, but NO MORE BRUISES. Somehow that kid managed not to bruise her so badly anymore. Sometimes it takes a MOTHER.

In our club there is a notorious hard hitter. Finally someone had the nerve to tell him either he gets some control or they never fence him again. The person being an excellent fencer, had some effect. Somehow again the hardhit fencer manages to show some control with the excellent fencer but still wacks the crap out of the rest of the club.

Fencers!! Just say no. If you are being hurt tell the person he/she can find someone else to put up with that stuff but you are not gonna do it. If enough people stand up, the extreme wacking will stop.

All of you literal people don't start with the, "bruising happens in fencing, it is part of the sport, blah blah" because you know what I mean.

[veeco]

Originally posted by Chris
Yes, it does, but, in the USFA, a coach cannot keep you from going to a competition; only if you are in a school program, or in some arrangement where you would need club gear, and that can be denied. Obviously, a coach can kick someone out of their club, and communicates this to Local, and National tournament organizers.

True, a coach cannot "keep" someone from entering a competition. But usually the fencer will actually have some kind of respect in the coach's opinion in that matter. It is also usually the coach who usually says to the fencer that they feel that this competition might be good to attend. Also, coaches know about the schedule of tournaments and so forth, they can very well just not talk about the upcoming tournaments to specific students because they feel they are not ready. Finally, in last resort, a coach can also say, "Ok, you want to fence in that tournament, fine, but I won't be coaching you there, because I don't think that at the level you are at right now it will do any good, and I have other students for which it will actually matter".

So, while theoretically it is not possible to prevent someone from entering a tournament, a good coach can and will find means to tell his students if he feels that they are not ready for a certain tournament.

(In the USFA) The guy can continue to enter tournaments and fence, until he gets black carded and ejected from the tournament. This definitely DOES change his behavior, since he's not in the tournament anymore to be behaving.
If a fencer is blacked carded in a punitive manner (i.e. not for simply failing to appear on strip when called, unless this is a habitual thing), fencer exclusion should usually be reported to National office, as there are escalating sanctions that may be imposed, barring them from competitions for extended periods of time.

Unless for cases of doping, I have never heard of or seen such a thing happen. I have seen punitive black cards being given, but the sanction was exclusion from the tournament, and that was it. Usually black cards are not reported to the office, or if they are the office has other things to do than making sure to enforce this.

To reuse one of your arguments, if a fencer has been black carded in, say Michigan, it doesn't matter if the black card has been reported to the office or not; that fencer can totally show up at a tournament the next month in New York and start wacking again. So IMO, black cards are as useful as you think coaches are.

Honestly, as much as I hate to see one person beating up another one (or worse a kid), seeing two grown up men find some kind of sick enjoyment in it doesn't bother me at all. Eventually as I said one will seriously hurt the other and that might calm their ardor for the rest of their fencing life.

[Zelda]

Originally posted by Mo
All of you literal people don't start with the, "bruising happens in fencing, it is part of the sport, blah blah" because you know what I mean.

I'm with Mo....(for once). There is a significant difference between bruising which happens due to accidently misplaced hits in the heat of competition and the bruising which occurs when someone refuses to temper their hits. There are a few people at my club in Brisbane who know I dont actually like fencing them due to the potential injuries they could cause me. But they dont change....I suppose it is better to avoid some people and not get hurt then be inclusive and maybe write yourself off for a training session due to severe bruising....(It helps that our coach is a doctor and knows when not to push us injury wise!!!)

[Chris]

Originally posted by Mo
It should be the coach's responsibility to make sure that fencers learn to fence correctly. Why are they even fencing if they have no idea how to do it?

Originally posted by veeco
True, a coach cannot "keep" someone from entering a competition. But usually the fencer will actually have some kind of respect in the coach's opinion in that matter.

Well, first of all, without even getting into the fact that, as I said before, some coaches actually TEACH their fencers to hit hard, there ARE a lot of fencers who actually have NO COACH WHATSOEVER!
(Now these aren't the fencers on the National points lists, but that's really irrelavent.)

A lot of other fencers don't have a coach, so much as a club owner/manager, or club president, and sometimes entire clubs (usually small ones for obvious reasons) engage in this sort of mutual flagellation. Be it at club, or at competition, it is incumbent upon the individual to A. understand the rules, and B. communicate with the people they are involved with (including referees) that too hard is too hard!

Originally posted by Mo
(snip) Finally, after my daughter changed into shorts one day with her bruises showing, his MOTHER had a hissy fit. She told her son she did not care why he was doing it, or how sorry he was that he was doing it, but NO MORE BRUISES. Somehow that kid managed not to bruise her so badly anymore. Sometimes it takes a MOTHER.

Bravo!

Originally posted by Mo
In our club there is a notorious hard hitter. Finally someone had the nerve to tell him either he gets some control or they never fence him again. The person being an excellent fencer, had some effect. Somehow again the hardhit fencer manages to show some control with the excellent fencer but still wacks the crap out of the rest of the club.

Fencers!! Just say no. If you are being hurt tell the person he/she can find someone else to put up with that stuff but you are not gonna do it. If enough people stand up, the extreme wacking will stop.

Exactly! Sometimes you have to vote with your feet! In the club, no one should MAKE you fence a person like this, if you explain WHY you don't want to fence them; In a tournament, the referee must be on the watch for this. People tend to want to give people the benefit of the doubt, but the rules ARE clear: It does not have to be intentional to warrant sanction; Noone wants to make a fuss, and be labeled as a 'wimp', but IMHO, the wimp is the one who keeps his mouth shut and takes it!

At 6"1', and 240 lbs, I can take it, and I can dish it out: WHY should I HAVE to!?!

Originally posted by veeco
It is also usually the coach who usually says to the fencer that they feel that this competition might be good to attend. Also, coaches know about the schedule of tournaments and so forth, they can very well just not talk about the upcoming tournaments to specific students because they feel they are not ready.

(again, with the invalid assupmtion that there is coaching present...)
I don't know what division YOU fence in, but once you are a member of the USFA, the local organization is supposed to sent you their local schedule! People don't need the coach to tell them about tournaments.

Can the coach try to sequester that information, yes, but, how are you going to keep the boy down on the farm, once they've seen Paris!?!

So, while theoretically it is not possible to prevent someone from entering a tournament, a good coach can and will find means to tell his students if he feels that they are not ready for a certain tournament.

I think (some) coaches are useful, I am merely pointing out that
A. not everyone has one;
B. not everyone has a good one
C. Sometimes the problem actually STARTS with coach!

Unless for cases of doping, I have never heard of or seen such a thing happen. I have seen punitive black cards being given, but the sanction was exclusion from the tournament, and that was it. Usually black cards are not reported to the office, or if they are the office has other things to do than making sure to enforce this.

To reuse one of your arguments, if a fencer has been black carded in, say Michigan, it doesn't matter if the black card has been reported to the office or not; that fencer can totally show up at a tournament the next month in New York and start wacking again. So IMO, black cards are as useful as you think coaches are.

(see above)
Not all black cards need to be reported, but some* are to be reported, and SHOULD be, also, certainly, within a division, this communication can be effected.

*(penalties related to fencing CAN include exclusion from competition - i.e. group 3 black card. DISCIPLINARY penalties imposed by a bout committee - i.e. Group 4 black card - are the sort that are to be reported. Don't get me wrong, I do not fool myself to think that everyting is always done according to the rules, but I retain my right to extoll them nonetheless! )

(snip) seeing two grown up men find some kind of sick enjoyment in it doesn't bother me at all. Eventually as I said one will seriously hurt the other and that might calm their ardor for the rest of their fencing life.

Well, if they want to 'go out back', and do it that's one thing, but to come into a club, go to a tournament and have that behavior sends the message that it is acceptable, and to be tolerated, (which it NOT), and other people will feel that they may do it also!

[pkt]

Peter,

You have yet to answer Cpt. Slo-mo's question - which I also noticed - about the 'contact wire' in a sabre.

I agree, in spite of the fact that all the participants are U-rated, have a talk-to with them, give them the benefit of the doubt, then card them.

I'll also gove them a verbal warning for the chit-chat after 'allez'.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

A similar situation happened to me once.

A slightly demented beginner was doing the same thing Axeman did : sword hand by the ear swing cut... and intimidated the heck out of everyone else. When I faced him in the pools, my maitre d'armes was judging, I made an invitation, he did his usual swing cut, quinte oparry, my riposte to his head landed all the way to his back. My maitre understood why I did what I did, but explained to me he had to card me. I said, 'Fine. But he aint't touching me."
The other guy, after he got hit, tossed his sabre up in the air to a height of about 25 ft in a 30-ft gym, got tossed out to everyone's relief.

Yes, this is an extreme situation. I knew what the limits were. With the understanding of the Maitre and an understanding directoire technique, I was successful in having this person removed from the tournament with one riposte.

I won't recommend this to the others unless you know the parameters.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I'm sure we all know that in most instances, sabre welts are skin deep which should go away in 3-4 days.
On the other hand an epee hit esp the ones to the upperside of the elbow is bone deep and can last for 10 days.

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PK

[veeco]

Originally posted by pkt

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I'm sure we all know that in most instances, sabre welts are skin deep which should go away in 3-4 days.
On the other hand an epee hit esp the ones to the upperside of the elbow is bone deep and can last for 10 days.

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PK

This is a false statement. I fenced sabre the other week and I still have bruises from it. I have never, ever, in more than 15 years of fencing have had epee bruises last more than a week. Especially those hits to "la saignee" in epee usually don't last more than a couple of days for me. Try getting a big whack by some "Axeman" on the collar bone in sabre and tell me how long it takes to heal...

So I guess saying: "your mileage may vary" would be a better statement.

[pkt]

veeco,

I'm disappointed with you. When you are up against an Axeman type, you don't let him come close. See the 2nd half of my last posting. But hten again, how many Axeman's are there? Opoops I know of one in the WWD of the USFA who has caused a lot of havoc but not with me, touch wood.

Obviously, I'm talking of my own recuperative power - or the lack thereof - here.

PK

[veeco]

Originally posted by pkt
veeco,

I'm disappointed with you. When you are up against an Axeman type, you don't let him come close

I am sorry I disappointed you... Next time, I will respond with more force to any person who tries to beat on me. I will stiffen my arm, wrist and elbow, while at the same time gripping my handle with as much power as I can. Then, I will deliver blows that would be sufficient to cut a small piece of concrete in two.

I hope this will be enough to restore your faith in me...