Epee: What is the Effectiveness of Binds and Evelopments?

[sungamer55]

Thanks everyone

[Bonehead]

I haven't been able to find a topic related to this particular one. So I thought I would create one. I am a new epee fencer, and I was wondering how effective are binds and envelopments? What kind of situations would you use either of these techniques in? For example, what would their ideal situation be in: an offensive situation or defensive one? Do binds and evelopments greatly decrease in effectiveness once the opponent knows that you can perform them? If so, to what extent has their value decreased? These questions have been wondering around in me for quite some time, and I would greatly appreciate any responses to any of these situations.

Here are the questions in a list.

1. How effective are binds and envelopments?
2. What kind of situations would you use either of these techniques in? For example, what would their ideal situation be in: an offensive situation or defensive one?
3. Do binds and evelopments greatly decrease in effectiveness once the opponent knows that you can perform them? If so, to what extent has their value decreased?

Thanks everyone

All fencing actions are simply tools that you can use to accomplish a goal (presumably score points).

Binds and evelopments are two separate categories of action, that are related in the sense that they both control the opponents blade.

So i'll try to answer your questions but I'm sure some other members of the board will chime in shortly (some with useful things, some with holier than thou remarks, some with sarcastic commnets ).

1. Their usefulness, like any tool depends on the situation. If you have a hammer and a nail, the hammer seems awesome. If you have a hammer and a screw, you might be able to make it work, but a different tool might have been better.

2. They are pretty useful in situations where you can get leverage on your opponents blade. For example, if someone has their arm fully extended, and is trying to put their point on your hand or something, you might be able to envelop the blade, or bind it to give yourself the point. If their arm isn't straight, their point is away from your target, and or they are trying to oppose your blade, you're going to have way more trouble controlling their blade. Maybe you can make it work if you're particularily strong, or they are only sort of trying to parry, or something, but it will be like hammering a screw into wood; there is probably a better tool for the situation. Maybe it won't work at all.

3. Whether your opponent knows that you can perform them or not isn't really the issue. The real question is will your opponent do something that prevetns you from executing these actions, such as pulling their tip up, and opposing your blade. Sometimes people know what you're doing, but don't know how stop it. Sometimes people know how to stop, but can't get over their habits. Sometimes they know exactly what to do, and can do it, but perhaps you are able to perform lots of different actions, and then are able to surprise them at the opportune moment.

As for a numerical value for how much their value has decreased, I would say it's -7 (see I told you someone would be sarcastic).

[dramamine]

Generally speaking I think that enveloppements are more useful in the context of a lesson to make sure that someone is using a correct hand position when they do a blocking parry. You might find a use for them in a bout but in most cases I think that you opponent will be able to detach from your blade before you can really execute one (and if you already have their blade to begin with, you are usually better off just hitting them than continuing to parry!)

Binds can be executed very quickly and can be very effective - a strong take 4 bind to 8 is a great action to really control someone's blade and can be done very smoothly as either a parry riposte or an attack (it's a great action with a fleche, just go hand first and get to the target quickly!)

[noodle]

1. How effective are binds and envelopments?
2. What kind of situations would you use either of these techniques in? For example, what would their ideal situation be in: an offensive situation or defensive one?
3. Do binds and evelopments greatly decrease in effectiveness once the opponent knows that you can perform them? If so, to what extent has their value decreased?

Thanks everyone

your answer to all 3 is, basically, "it depends". it depends on how good you are at doing them in various situations and how good you are at setting them up. it depends on how your opponent fences. etc.. they can be effective actions if done in appropriate situations

[BAD KNEE 2]

1. Their usefulness, like any tool depends on the situation. If you have a hammer and a nail, the hammer seems awesome. If you have a hammer and a screw, you might be able to make it work, but a different tool might have been better.


I'm not competent in the use of and therefore to comment on binds and envelopments, but I know that the threads on wood screws are only for removing them. Hammers work really well on screws and you don't get carpal tunnel.

[Mr.MightyMouse]

your answer to all 3 is, basically, "it depends". it depends on how good you are at doing them in various situations and how good you are at setting them up. it depends on how your opponent fences. etc.. they can be effective actions if done in appropriate situations

This is the key IMHO - you can develop the most amazing bind in the lessons, but creating timing , distance, and your opponents positioning is still everything, combined with the speed of your reflex and execution, as well as, your arm strength.
I know fencers who use binds on defense, I'm more of a proponent of straight opposition.
Envelopment works better - at least to me - in a farther blade distance vis a vis your opponent's one, as opposed to first intention binds being used in a closer quarter.

[parrythis]

Both are valuable tools in that, executed properly, they allow you to put your point on target while preventing your opponent from doing the same. Since both fencers' touches count in epee, this has value.

If your opponent is stronger than you and can counter your bind with one of their own, or has a very light touch with the blade that prevents you from successfully executing a bind or envelopment, you may find that those techniques are not as effective in those situations as they might be against other opponents.

[sungamer55]

thanks

anymore input from anyone else is also helpful