Fleching into your opponent

[BugabooX]

Has your opponent ever physically attacked you on the strip in a manner that lies beyond the approved boundaries of the sport? (i.e. punching, shoving, kicking, etc.)

And if so, what prompted the reaction? How was that person treated afterward?

[DHCJr]

I saw at a World University Game that happen. A fencer from France was fencing someone from Cuba in Men’s Foil. The Cuban received a warning for corp-a-corp. On the next action there was contact, but the referee said there was no corp-a-corp, so the French fencer took a swing at the Cuban and a fight ensued. The police came in and broke it up. When order was restored the referee calmly held up a black card to both fencers. The French team exploded and demanded a review. A little over a half-hour later the referee returns, apologizes then holds up a black card to the Cuban and a red card to the French fencer. The Cuban was thrown out of the competition, while the French fencer went into the final of 8.

[veeco]

Originally posted by DHCJr
I saw at a World University Game that happen. A fencer from France was fencing someone from Cuba in Men’s Foil. The Cuban received a warning for corp-a-corp. On the next action there was contact, but the referee said there was no corp-a-corp, so the French fencer took a swing at the Cuban and a fight ensued. The police came in and broke it up. When order was restored the referee calmly held up a black card to both fencers. The French team exploded and demanded a review. A little over a half-hour later the referee returns, apologizes then holds up a black card to the Cuban and a red card to the French fencer. The Cuban was thrown out of the competition, while the French fencer went into the final of 8.

Hehe... And I thought the French fencing federation was friends with the Cuban one...

Politics, politics...

[veeco]

I have seen physical assault happen a lot in bouts, especially when I was a kid in France. Mind you, I don't think that the French fence all like that, but in my section there was this one particular guy (who happens to be a former Junior world champion and olympic medalist) who would always stir up trouble.

I remember refereeing a bout between him and someone else. I was kind of a green horn directing that bout and it was generally accepted that there would be some kind trouble during that bout. We were fencing on ungrounded strips so I had to older fencers helping me as side judges.

The mean guy attacked and basically went into infighting, giving the other fencer a headbutt with his mask and kicking him with his knee at the same time. The bout was righty - righty, and while the mean guy was doing this, he was cleverly hiding what he was doing with his back, so I did not notice. I just stopped the bout for corps a corps (this was epee) and put them back on guard.

One of the side judges came to me and told me that he had seen the mean guy headbutt the other guy and that he should be carded. The mean guy told him to shut up, that as a side judge he was allowed to speak only when I, who was presiding, asked him to. I think he even said that as a side judge, he was nothing more than a decorative plant or something like that. A fight ensued, and I could not really do something about it (I must have been 15 or 16 at the time).

That mean guy was well known in the section for being a trouble maker and everyone dreaded having him in their tournament. I saw him and my coach (who was kinda hot headed too) fight together, at our divisional championships. The mean guy's son, who was not a bad fencer as well, was quick to join the fight.

I have also been knocked out by the mean guy's son with a fleche to the mask (his bell guard apparently got a mind of its own and decided to fly directly to my mask for some reason). This time he was carded for jostling.

When that kind of stuff happens, it's better to just shake it off, try and get the referee to card, and if no card is given, just go back on guard and fence the next touch. There is no reason to give this kind of sinister person the pleasure of seeing you down for too long...

[Aoife]

Jeez, I've never seen anything like that, certainly not experianced it (although, once more, this is almost certainly due to my newness, and the fact that the all people I fence with I'd known for years before we started fencing).

The only time I've ever been hit in fencing is gently in jest by a friend. Normally if I've accidently done something which has hurt them, they'll pretend to slap me round the head or something.... sounds rather dumb when I actually type it out, but oh well, like i said, we've all been friends for years.

[Capt. Slo-mo]

Two years ago, Summer nationals, Div 3 epee. Kid from our club, 14-15 at the time, was fencing an older guy built like a fireplug.

Older guy fleches, runs right into the younger guy, chest to chest, knocks him backwards like he was hit by a truck. No card is given...howls of protest erupt from fencer/spectators/people flying overhead in airplanes.

Next point, the guy fleches again, runs straight into the younger kid, knocks him head over heels again. Referee pulls yellow card, gives it to BOTH fencers. More howls of protest. Fencer's parent nearly has to be physically restrained.

At this point, younger fencer (after trying to shake off the assault) now begins to immediately retreat when the big guy advances...match is soon over--which, I suspect was exactly the line of thinking the older fencer was using.

No punches were thrown, but it looked like a mugging, none-the-less.

[Catal]

Those are the kind of people (the judge and the bad fencer) who you follow home...

[CvilleFencer]

Originally posted by veeco
I have also been knocked out by the mean guy's son with a fleche to the mask (his bell guard apparently got a mind of its own and decided to fly directly to my mask for some reason). This time he was carded for jostling.

When that kind of stuff happens, it's better to just shake it off, try and get the referee to card, and if no card is given, just go back on guard and fence the next touch. There is no reason to give this kind of sinister person the pleasure of seeing you down for too long...

Wow. You have much more patience and restraint than I do. I think I would have at least taken a swing at the guy if this were the kind of thing he did on a regular basis. For that matter I am surprised no one ever followed this cretin and his son out into the parking lot after a tourney with a sawed off pool cue and a book of manners! I wonder why both were not black carded or banned more often?

I have never had to deal with anything in a tourney other than headgames and occasional cheating or bad judge, and that is enough to get me pretty hot. That might be because of my size (if you are being kind you might say I am big boned) but I have never come across anyone that ever got physical in a match other than light jostling.

Then again, maybe it is just a French thing. It is after all a country known for its uncivilized and unsportsmanlike conduct. Towards American tour de France winners anyway :-) Oh, and towards Canadian figure scatters.

[CvilleFencer]

Originally posted by DHCJr
I saw at a World University Game that happen. A fencer from France was fencing someone from Cuba in Men’s Foil. The Cuban received a warning for corp-a-corp. On the next action there was contact, but the referee said there was no corp-a-corp, so the French fencer took a swing at the Cuban and a fight ensued. The police came in and broke it up. When order was restored the referee calmly held up a black card to both fencers. The French team exploded and demanded a review. A little over a half-hour later the referee returns, apologizes then holds up a black card to the Cuban and a red card to the French fencer. The Cuban was thrown out of the competition, while the French fencer went into the final of 8.

So why did the Cuban fencer get a black if the French knucklehead started the swinging? Was it just the French team being obnoxious and loud or paying someone off, or was there a good reason?

Also, where was the competition held? Two sides to every match and all, and it is hard to say from just short descriptions, but if any of my kids ever took a swing at another, he would definitely get the black card unless there was some kind of deliberate and plain aggression from the swung upon fencer. Of course I am known as a bit of a card monkey!

Anyway it sounds like another good one to add to my "Why the French are despicable" list so I would love any details.

After all there are two things I despise. A person who would discriminate against someone based on his or her country of origin... And the French.

[Inquartata]

When I was relatively new to fencing, I was fencing a guy who lost his temper, grabbed a fistful of my jacket ( before lames in sabre ) and started walking me backward while cursing at me. He thought I'd hit him after the halt, and I may have done, but it certainly wasn't intentional---reflexes not yet completely under control.

While I was contemplating whether to break his wrist, dislocate his shoulder or just turn into him and throw an elbow to the side of his head, several bystanders grabbed him. The director expelled him from the tournament ( this was before the card system ).

I also saw two foilists go at each other on the strip. There was bad blood between them anyway, arguments kept erupting and the ref didn't squelch them firmly enough, finally argument progressed to name-calling and they both wound up with hands clenched around each others' throats. Black cards and gone, both of them.

[Catlady]

I've never had anyone obviously hit me, or seen anyone do it to anyone else, but there is a certain person in my club, who, if he feels that the director has been shafting him will start to hit and parry very hard. When he does this it is obvious that it's not a matter of misjudging distance and using more force that necessary, he's really out to inflict pain and, IMHO show the director that he won't be cheated-- if you saw him do it, it would be very obvious that this is the case. I have both directed bouts where he's started to do this, and been on the receiving end of the hard hits. I should mention that I am not the most even tempered person either, though for the most part I'm much more likely to yell and/or stalk off strip than I am to get physical. I will admit once or twice when I was a beginner and also going through a frustrating period in my life, I have hit overly hard, but I like to think I've grown out of it--and I have really, to the point that if I know someone is fencing at a disadvantage, especially if they're hurt, I can't force myself to be as intense as I should. Anyway, one night this person felt he was getting cheated on calls and went into his usually routine when he was fencing me. I took it for a few touches, though not without a bit of effort, finally I gave in and decided that if he wanted to play that game, I could play too. The next action I landed a very flat, very forceful blow. His mask came off, he came up to me, said somthing to the effect of, "If you ever do that to me again, you'll regret it", put one hand on my chest and pushed. By then my dander was up--recall here what the Fencers in Town story says about foilists who forget what size they are when drunk, that was what was going on with me, except I was sober-- and I marched right back up to him and told him if he ever did that to me again, he'd regret it too and pushed him. At this point, in an act of extreme bravery and self sacrifice, our director stepped between us and separated us. We glared at on another, then I started down the strip waving my foil menacingly he. He said, having some position of authority in the club, " That's it, your out of here." and stalked off. While the director restrained me.

Believe it or not, this person is not actually such a bad guy. Part of the problem is we're both stubborn and contentious. We drive each other nuts, with most people he puts on his "dominance display" and they back down, I am mostly, not impressed. I consider arguing a sport, and thus rise to the bait even though I know I shouldn't. I've been warned to not antagonize him. On the other hand, this same person has also spent many hours working with me to improve my fencing, and does a great job with his club management responsibilities.

What's worse though is directing when he decides to play rough. If it were an official situation, I would have no qualms about telling him, "Here's your card, have a nice day.", but in practice I don't have the necessary authority to back it up-- I'm one of the younger senior members of the club, haven't fenced there, or anywhere, as long as he has, and I don't impress him, so carding him would only start more trouble. I find myself giving him touches when he gets like this to prevent him from hurting his opponent, even though I've been told to just let him do it. My other option is to walk away, but given my personality, it's hard. I've also been told to tell one of the people he does respect and have them deal with it, but that's something that goes against the way I work. If you have a problem with me, I want you to come to me and say so, not tell someone else and have me end up hearing it by some circuitous path, and that's the way I treat others. If I've got a problem with you, I will discuss it with you because I respect you. To tell someone else and have them deal with it, except in certain cases, to me is the coward's way out.

Sorry this last part has turned into a rant, and has probably revealed a lot more about my faults than those of anyone else. Sorry.

[veeco]

Originally posted by CvilleFencer
Wow. You have much more patience and restraint than I do. I think I would have at least taken a swing at the guy if this were the kind of thing he did on a regular basis.

That's probably why I am an epee fencer... ;-)

For that matter I am surprised no one ever followed this cretin and his son out into the parking lot after a tourney with a sawed off pool cue and a book of manners! I wonder why both were not black carded or banned more often?

Well, you have to remember that this guy is a former Junior World Champion (I believe he was or maybe still is holding some kind of record for this), Olympic Team medalist, and an international referee. He knows the rules inside out and always seemed to be able to get himself out of the difficult situations in one way or another. He is quite smart (in a street smart kinda way) and it was hard to catch off guard. IIRC, he did get black carded a couple of times, though he probably got more people black carded because he pushed them so much over the limit that they would do something stupid.

Then again, maybe it is just a French thing. It is after all a country known for its uncivilized and unsportsmanlike conduct. Towards American tour de France winners anyway :-) Oh, and towards Canadian figure scatters.

I am curious, I have heard of the figure skating thing, but not of anything with Lance Armstrong, can you tell me more about it?

[DHCJr]

Originally posted by CvilleFencer
So why did the Cuban fencer get a black if the French knucklehead started the swinging? Was it just the French team being obnoxious and loud or paying someone off, or was there a good reason?

This was held in Buffalo New York. The number 2 person from the Directeur Technique and he seemed to be the one really running things. There are two theories, but we may never know the truth, because everything was done behind closed doors. The first is since this was to get into the final and the French fencer was ahead, they couldn’t leave an opening. Everyone was told to keep any controversy away from the press. Water Polo had a fight near the first day and was on television every day; nothing was ever mentioned about fencing.

The second is more sinister. One of the fencers was French. There is some support for this theory. Two weapons for the Women’s Foil team were failed for high resistance (over 100 Ohms). The rule had been approved a few weeks earlier, but was not in the (French) rulebook. The Armorers were told to go strictly by the (French) rulebook, no deviations. The next day was men’s Foil and not a single weapon passed from the French team going strictly by the rulebook. One of the Armorers hands was whacked with an Epee, when the blade was rejected for being too stiff. The Armorer tried to protest and was told it had to be in writing, so it was written up. Then is had to be in French, which was done. Then the Armorers were told it had to be addressed to the French Team Captain. During the French/Cuban Foil Team Final a Cuban weapon failed the weight test, so was given a Yellow Card. The Fencers came on guard and someone from the French Team yelled the Cuban only had one weapon now, so the referee gave the Cuban a Red Card. The fencer protested and he was given a second Red Card for frivolous protest.

I will let you draw your own conclusion.

One parting note, the Armorer that was hit was British and during the team Epee final between the French and the Italians the last French fencer who lost the final bout wore his teams armband upside down. I thanked him for honoring the American and British Armorers. He didn’t seem to pleased with the thank you.

[DamedEscrime]

Ahhh.. one "gentleman" who shall remain nameless, as he is known by his foul repution, got me good. Evidently, he thought the I should not be able to touch him since he was so much more expererinced than I. Once I made a touch he pounded me, punching into my arm and dragging the tip up, leaving abrasions as well as bruises. This caused sweat to poor into the abrasions. stinging my arm and really annoying me. I wish I could say that I went on to beat the daylights of of him, but I can't. I did keep my cool and came close which really pissed him off, evidient by the whipping of and throwing of his mask. (After I had fenced his son. a nice High school boy, I overheard the guy telling the son that I should never had been able to get close to him.) Oh well...... I tried to avoid the guy the rest of the evening.
Now here is a funny about the same guy. Awhile later I was asked to direct at a high school tourny and guess who was fencing. The guy's son. Mr. Tough guy all of a sudden wanted to make nice......haha. He really scored with me when he said.."Oh hi... you're Diane, right?" LOL, Diane is not my name!

[Boo Boo]

Some blokes do seem to enjoy taking chunks out of women: have been hit very hard by a number of blokes who didn't like me being ahead during a fight.

I fenced in a men's university team foil event (we only had two men and me, the organisers didn't see a problem with me fencing as the third "man") in Holland once - that was VERY brutal. Needless to say, most of the other teams had a good laugh when they saw that our team had a woman on it (the other teams were mainly Dutch and German). When some of them lost to me, they ensured that it was painful (got a sprained wrist and punched in the mask with a guard, in addition to numerous other bruises...) over the day's fencing. I think that they were rather humiliated infront of their team mates...

Have never had anyone do anything outside of hitting hard during fencing though, fortunately.

Boo

[BugabooX]

I've heard at least one person, after succumbing to emotion and making a jab at his opponent's gut with his free hand, try to dismiss the action as lacking any power or serious injury. A weak apology followed the next day.

I just have to shake my head at that sort of justification. "Pat" or "slap, "poke" or "punch," it's all the same: Loss of control and unsportsmanlike conduct.

[sallearmourer]

I was fencing at a local competition I was watching a big guy in the pool just using his size to scare everybody else with his body slammming fleece. My turn came to fence him as he started his fleece I side step him and jee whezz as he went by my foot was in the way and with a little help of my left hand he wound up flat on the floor. He tryed it again and I step into him and blam on the floor he went again. I told him he really needs to fence and not to try and scare the smaller fencers.
What he didn't realize that at 5'8" at the time I weigh 245 pounds of solid muscle. The referee at the time told me after the bout that was the funniest thing he ever saw.

Tim

[floretje]

A year ago, a opponent gave me a punch!! But the referee didn't say a thing, so, what happened....? In the same game, when she stood too close to me, a gave her a punch back. And the referee still didn't say a word......

By the way, I'm not proud of my action!!!

[Boo Boo]

Hhhmmmm, reminds me - in addition to my previous experience of fencing in the Netherlands (explained above) - not to fence in the Netherlands again ;-)

I would guess that your ref was either inexperienced, not too comfident or both...

Boo

[hi5]

while fencing saber i got bell punched in the throat. I couldnt breathe for a good ten seconds, eventhough no penelty was given. After i recovered i was pissed and i didnt want my opponent to think that using those kind of tatics would work so i made sure i shut him out 5-0. Afterwards I went up to him and asked him what was up with that bell punch to the throat and he apologized and said he drank a six pack before the competition.

Anyone else have any experiences with drunk fencers??