Lining in FIE Jacket

[Fencer180]

The "moisture wicking" lining in my Allstar Ecostar jacket is starting to get fuzzy and quite bothersome, if I were to cut out it out of the jacket, would it void the FIE status? Thanks!

[Beloit Fencer of Old]

1) Removing a layer from protective equipment is not a good idea.
2) Do you fence internationally?

[Fencer180]

I figure that it doesn't add to the safety of the jacket, but only for the convenience of drying quicker. I will (hopefully) be fencing internationally next year

[SJCFU#2]

I will (hopefully) be fencing internationally next year

Then it probably wouldn't be a good idea to modify your jacket, even if it doesn't adversely effect the protection (the FIE can get rather picky about things like that).

[bigdawg2121]

In practice the FIE actually doesn't care. Unless you make a really major Grand Prix or you make worlds there's never a check for your uniform. If it says FIE it's FIE. If it doesn't it isn't. Simple.

Whether removing the lining is a good idea is an entirely different discussion.

[SJCFU#2]

If it says FIE it's FIE. If it doesn't it isn't. Simple.

However once it's been modified it probably wouldn't be considered "FIE" anymore (granted, you are probably correct that no one is likely to ever check, but if it were challenged then you wouldn't have much of a leg to stand on).

[Purple Fencer]

However once it's been modified it probably wouldn't be considered "FIE" anymore (granted, you are probably correct that no one is likely to ever check, but if it were challenged then you wouldn't have much of a leg to stand on).

However, re jackets, knickers, and underarms, FIE is only concerned with and tests for puncture resistance...not design or consruction. And the double layer rule only applies to the weapon arm in the jacket...so removing the wicking layer wouldn't invalidate the certification. Whether it's smart is another matter.

Just have a seastress replace the lining and you'll be fine.

[erooMynohtnA]

It would no longer meet the letter of the law, but how would they know? Unless there were shards of lining everywhere, no one would know it had one to begin with. If someone were so familiar with the jacket that they knew it had a lining, I think they'd know that had nothing to do with the protection.

Additionally, the lining may help prevent connection between your jacket and your lame, so it might not be in your best interest if you're one of the particularly sweaty foilists.

[erooMynohtnA]

However, re jackets, knickers, and underarms, FIE is only concerned with and tests for puncture resistance...not design or consruction.

I'm not going to check the rulebook to see if you're wrong about anything else, but regarding the blade catcher on the neck and the very next line on your post, this is shown to be untrue.

[Purple Fencer]

I'm not going to check the rulebook to see if you're wrong about anything else, but regarding the blade catcher on the neck and the very next line on your post, this is shown to be untrue.

No mention of the blade catcher in the material rules (chapter 2, m.25, section 4). It DOES say a "lining making a double thickness of material for the sleeve down to the elbow of the sword arm and covering the flank up to the region of the armpit."

I mentioned this requirement...it COULD be interpreted as a double layer in the entirety of the jacket, but it more closely reads the wepon arm/weapon flank only.

If he removed the lining from the chest area, or the off arm, or the back, he'd still be legal. Not necessarily GOOD, but legal.

Again....have a seamstress sew on new material and he'll be fine.


Making a single alteration ij and of itself doesn't negate FIE certificaion....it depends on WHAT your modification is.

For purposes of CERTIFICATION, FIE doesn't care about construction or design, so long as the end product follows the material rules. As far a the fabric itself, FIE only cares abut resistance to penetration.

[erooMynohtnA]

My mistake

[Fencer180]

No mention of the blade catcher in the material rules (chapter 2, m.25, section 4). It DOES say a "lining making a double thickness of material for the sleeve down to the elbow of the sword arm and covering the flank up to the region of the armpit."

I mentioned this requirement...it COULD be interpreted as a double layer in the entirety of the jacket, but it more closely reads the wepon arm/weapon flank only.

This rule is universal for all weapons? Does the fact that I fence sabre affect any of these guidelines?

[erooMynohtnA]

No, and I believe the requirement is for a double sleeve of jacket material, not just anything.

[Beloit Fencer of Old]

This rule is universal for all weapons? Does the fact that I fence sabre affect any of these guidelines?

No. The fact that you fence sabre simply makes you silly.

[Purple Fencer]

No. The fact that you fence sabre simply makes you silly.

Annnnd cue Inq!

The rules re clothing are identical across all weapons (rules specific to sabre and foil lames aside)

[SJCFU#2]

However, re jackets, knickers, and underarms, FIE is only concerned with and tests for puncture resistance...not design or consruction.

Based solely on what's written in the rules this may appear to be true however these days the FIE appears to be deferring to the European Standard for Protective Equipment for Fencing, EN 13567, Level II (of which Donald provided a copy in this thread), and that standard goes into far more detail than anything that's stated in the material rules.

There's also the precedence of Inq's visor mask - IIRC when he asked Dan about whether or not he could add a layer of reflective film to the inside of the visor he was advised that such a modification would probably be considered a unacceptable even though it would not effect to amount of protection provided by the mask.

[Purple Fencer]

Based solely on what's written in the rules this may appear to be true however these days the FIE appears to be deferring to the European Standard for Protective Equipment for Fencing, EN 13567, Level II (of which Donald provided a copy in this thread), and that standard goes into far more detail than anything that's stated in the material rules.

I don't think it's so much FIE deferring to CE II testing as an understanding that CE's testing regimen is far more inclusive than what FIE requires.

Something can be made that passes FIE requirements, but does not pass CE II (850N resistance to puncture, but failure of sean strength)....however, if it passes CE II, then it DOES pass FIE.

Again....FIE only requires the FABRIC be tested....FIE has no requirement to test to seam strength in the completed product (for example)...the more stringent CE II does.

[SJCFU#2]

I don't think it's so much FIE deferring to CE II testing as an understanding that CE's testing regimen is far more inclusive than what FIE requires.

Something can be made that passes FIE requirements, but does not pass CE II (850N resistance to puncture, but failure of sean strength)....however, if it passes CE II, then it DOES pass FIE.

Again....FIE only requires the FABRIC be tested....FIE has no requirement to test to seam strength in the completed product (for example)...the more stringent CE II does.

But will the FIE accept anything that doesn't meet CE II these days, regardless of whether or not this necessitates going beyond their stated requirements?

Obviously they did at one time - EN 13567 only dates back about nine years while FIE uniforms date back over 20. However Rick Shellhouse's experience trying to get FIE approval for his Escrime uniform suggests that there may be more to the approval process these days than simply using a fabric which meets the FIE's strength standards (granted, I suspect there's more to that story than either of us know).

On the other hand there's the controversy over the Wuxi FIE uniform. IIRC it was originally approved by the FIE (and still is) however it has since been banned by some European countries for failure to satisfy CE II requirements in a second round of testing (that second round of testing being another source of controversy about which I doubt that we have all of the facts).

What the question really comes down to is whenever someone (anyone - manufacturer or individual) alters a product which has previously been tested and approved does that approval carry over to the modified product or does it need to go through the approval process all over again?

[Beloit Fencer of Old]

Annnnd cue Inq!

The rules re clothing are identical across all weapons (rules specific to sabre and foil lames aside)

I know...I said this to pique him.

[Natureboy]

I know...I said this to pique him.

Pique Inq. Duck!