Re: "Trapping" blade in bout?

[BugabooX]

So I'm watching this lefty epeeist bout against a righty, and I notice that the lefty is quite pushy on the strip -- once he starts his attack sequence, he never retreats an inch. He actually would rather leeeean back than take a half step out of distance. Meanwhile, the righty guy's normal style is to counter and close distance a little; he does this with just about everyone. He also doesn't shy away from parrying with his bellguard or forte in close (sometimes more defensively foregoing additional infighting jabs as he passes).

If these two people compete against nearly anyone else in the area, it's no problem. Most people keep the lefty at greater distance and catch openings after he has spun out his energy or parries too widely. The righty, likewise, is kept at distance, or at worst his footwork takes him in a natural deflection angle off the strip when one of them passes.

But against each other?

The more aggressive lefty is prone to make multiple "violin-saw" jabs in close, while the righty parries. Or quite often the lefty misses the initial attack (they're both closing, rememember, so the point goes beyond target) while the righty is making his own low-line attack or yielding parry, and the lefty lodges his blade in the crook of righty's arm.

Lefty is all about blaming the other guy for trapping his blade. Righty is usually defending himself against the accusation, saying he's not actively trapping anything, and that lefty shouldn't be pushing himself into that position to begin with. In a few cases, Lefty also complains that righty is throwing an elbow during their clashes. From righty's perspective, the left-hander is putting himself in harm's way because he doesn't realize how physically aggressive he is. Left is *always* complaining about right. And neither fencer has problems with anyone else.

Do you ever see anything like this in your area? And if so, which of the personalities is more likely to be causing the problem?

[Artisan]

It sounds like neither of them is "fencing" their opponent, rather they are using the other fencer as a practice mannequin upon which they execute predetermined actions. Until BOTH of them learn that distance is a critical part of the game that relies on interaction with the opponent, they will keep bashing an poking - not fencing.

They deserve each other. Two alpha's who have let their endocrine systems overrule the strategic aspect of the game.

As far as the "trapping" ...perhaps explain to the lefty that if he's in that close to have his blade "trapped" without getting a light, then the fault is with the action he makes to get him there without scoring. If he makes his extension sooner, finds some point control, and parries / deceives less wildly, he will hit hand, wrist, forearm, elbow, bicept or flank with the point - getting a light rather than landing flat deep inside and feeling tangled. Rest assured, if he was getting lights, he wouldn't be complaining.

And the righty... same thing... if lefty has closed distance and not scored...then whats he (righty) doing in there? He must either put his arm out - NOT move his feet, and watch lefty impale himself on the way in (easier), or learn to infight once they are cheek to cheek (much harder).


You've as well as others have figured them out - use it to beat them - they will eventually quiet down. In the meantime enjoy the spectacle. We all slow down to gawk at car crashes...

... or suggest that when they fence each other they might do better at saber... if that doesn't work, have them fitted for boxing gloves.

Originally posted by BugabooX
So I'm watching this lefty epeeist bout against a righty, and I notice that the lefty is quite pushy on the strip -- once he starts his attack sequence, he never retreats an inch. He actually would rather leeeean back than take a half step out of distance. Meanwhile, the righty guy's normal style is to counter and close distance a little; he does this with just about everyone. He also doesn't shy away from parrying with his bellguard or forte in close (sometimes more defensively foregoing additional infighting jabs as he passes).

If these two people compete against nearly anyone else in the area, it's no problem. Most people keep the lefty at greater distance and catch openings after he has spun out his energy or parries too widely. The righty, likewise, is kept at distance, or at worst his footwork takes him in a natural deflection angle off the strip when one of them passes.

But against each other?

The more aggressive lefty is prone to make multiple "violin-saw" jabs in close, while the righty parries. Or quite often the lefty misses the initial attack (they're both closing, rememember, so the point goes beyond target) while the righty is making his own low-line attack or yielding parry, and the lefty lodges his blade in the crook of righty's arm.

Lefty is all about blaming the other guy for trapping his blade. Righty is usually defending himself against the accusation, saying he's not actively trapping anything, and that lefty shouldn't be pushing himself into that position to begin with. In a few cases, Lefty also complains that righty is throwing an elbow during their clashes. From righty's perspective, the left-hander is putting himself in harm's way because he doesn't realize how physically aggressive he is. Left is *always* complaining about right. And neither fencer has problems with anyone else.

Do you ever see anything like this in your area? And if so, which of the personalities is more likely to be causing the problem?

[BugabooX]

Originally posted by Artisan
It sounds like neither of them is "fencing" their opponent, rather they are using the other fencer as a practice mannequin upon which they execute predetermined actions. Until BOTH of them learn that distance is a critical part of the game that relies on interaction with the opponent, they will keep bashing an poking - not fencing.

They deserve each other. Two alpha's who have let their endocrine systems overrule the strategic aspect of the game. ...

Well, to be fair, they're both pretty good fencers otherwise (B-level each), and I did mention that they don't have any problems with anyone else. So overall I think it's mostly a personality/style clash -- pushy vs. stubborn, accusatory vs. defensive.

Otherwise, yeah, you hit the rest of the stuff on target.

[135711]

it just sounds like they're both aggressive fencers and are working out their fencing style with each other, sometimes a strong fencer has to 'break through' a certain mental level in order to reach a conclusion about the person they're fencing so they're better able to fence them in a competitive arena. in practice, you have to try just about anything with your opponent to see what he does, then to see what you can do, and so forth, in spite of the lesson plan that quotes 'step back' etc. we all know to step back at the attack, then parry etc, etc, however, how can you know your opponents nature if you don't do something else instead? if you know a little more about his/her nature, you can fight them better the next time. that's what i think

[MikeHarm]

I've seen a varient of this before, there was someone I used to fence who used to try to catch my blade under his arm. He put in something a bit extra though. The guy would spin his body if he managed to trap my blade to try to break my weapon and/or body cord. I'm not sure if you can get carded for that sort of thing but it was pretty unfriendly.

[angriff]

I've had a similar experience which left me pretty baffled. There my opponent was, advancing on me, so I acted on the classic epee reflex of sticking out my point at his exposed upper arm for the stop-hit. Horror of horrors I ended up seeing my blade on his shoulder (with the point hitting nothing but air, of course) and his light coming on.

If this happened once or twice I would dismiss it as poor point control on my part, but for it to happen more than 4 times (and nearly costing my team the bout, if I might add) is extremely disturbing. As it was he advanced whilst crouching very low, so I guess it would be possible for him to stand up as he approached, thereby deflecting my blade with his shoulder. I suppose it'd constitute a foul but I didn't call it, as it was murky for me too. What do you all think?

[Chris]

Originally posted by Artisan
It sounds like neither of them is "fencing" their opponent, rather they are using the other fencer as a practice mannequin upon which they execute predetermined actions. Until BOTH of them learn that distance is a critical part of the game that relies on interaction with the opponent, they will keep bashing an poking - not fencing.

They deserve each other. Two alpha's who have let their endocrine systems overrule the strategic aspect of the game.
(snip)

"You are correct, sir!"

[Chris]

Originally posted by angriff
I've had a similar experience which left me pretty baffled. There my opponent was, advancing on me, so I acted on the classic epee reflex of sticking out my point at his exposed upper arm for the stop-hit. Horror of horrors I ended up seeing my blade on his shoulder (with the point hitting nothing but air, of course) and his light coming on.

If this happened once or twice I would dismiss it as poor point control on my part, but for it to happen more than 4 times (and nearly costing my team the bout, if I might add) is extremely disturbing. As it was he advanced whilst crouching very low, so I guess it would be possible for him to stand up as he approached, thereby deflecting my blade with his shoulder. I suppose it'd constitute a foul but I didn't call it, as it was murky for me too. What do you all think?

No foul, whatsoever, how could you even think this?

This is totally your failure to assess his
capability, perceive the distance, control your reaction, and make adjustment.

He wouldn't cry 'foul!' if you retreated!

[Drew42]

Using his body to displace your blade as it passes *over* (or around) him isn't a foul, its smart fencing. Your blade was never trapped.

[magma]

that's why they say stuff, evenly matched opponents tend to fall into ruts together, one of them will have to break out of the predetermined mold, so they have to work out the details of a different sort of bout, maybe they need to encode their actions as was discussed in another thread, and study several bouts, then compare the areas where they tend to 'clash' and rework out a different set of moves.