New USFA rules vs new FIE rules

[Chris]

Originally posted by drayke
(snip)
And for that matter, what's with not printing the (rule) book? Having to download the thing sucks with the cost of printer ink cartridges!

Waht, do you think they would print them up and give them to everyone for free?

I for one, am not necessarily in love with the PDF format, but am GLAD that I don't have to pay to get the new rule book, when the 'old' one is only 3 years old!

You don't HAVE to print the whole thing out, you know!

[drayke]

[quote]Originally posted by Chris
[b]Waht, do you think they would print them up and give them to everyone for free?

No, they print them up and Fencing suppliers SELL them, and USFA sell sthem off the web site, and online booksellers sell them, and oh yeah, EBOOK so you could at least download to your pda.

[Chris]

Originally posted by drayke
No, they print them up and Fencing suppliers SELL them, and USFA sell sthem off the web site, and online booksellers sell them, and oh yeah, EBOOK so you could at least download to your pda. [/b]

Well, you are losing me, a little, but, certainly you must understand that the USFA is NOT trying to create obstacles to people getting the rules, or operations manual, but they can not be absorbing the cost of freely distibuting copies (which also cost money to print up...) to everyone, without a significant effect on the membership dues.

That being said, yes, I certainly can see where other format might have different utility, and mobility, but you must understand the nature of operation that is the USFA National office, and more importantly, the nature of their information technology/information systems 'department' - they are hardly what you call 'cutting edge' - more along the lines of tongue depressors...

If you look around, I think you will find it VERY common in sport NGB's (national governing bodies) that members and officiators pay for this sort of thing, as well as certification/education of referees/umpires/judges. They only difference is size: a umpire certified softball, and little league baseball can probably work full-time 4-6 months a year...(not a bad idea if you are a college student, with a car...)

Unfortunately the demand for fencing officials if much more sporadic, and they are much less appreciated.

ANYWAY, if you feel the need for a format that is electronically portable, you should probably put your money where you mouth is and do it yourself, as there is potentially no end to the number of formats that people might want, and only you know what you want...

Have a nice day!

[pkt]

[quote]Originally posted by drayke
[b]Well, perhaps USFA could take a lesson from USARUGBY -- which has adopted the IRB (rugby equivilent to FIE) law (rule) book, however has variations notated when it wants a difference domestically or wants to try out what is termed 'experimental' variation; often changes being considered by adoption that are being tested by actual use during a season.

Overall, one rule book, with differences notated so the player is able to learn and apply the rules appropiate to their level/competition - domestic or international.
[quote]

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I agree with drayke 100% (none of this 110% stuff, please).
Why do the USFA deem it necessary to reinvent the wheel? Translate the FIE rule from the French, with notations for local tournaments and be done with it.

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As to the swtiching of the lights: what confused the audience was that fencing was the only sport that recorded the scores as AGAINST a fencer whereas all other sports record he score as FOR
a competitor. Now fencing has joined the rest of the world.

When is the US going to join hte rest of the world?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

In the email from Bill Oliver quoted by JEC, Bill acutally wrote '...it's..." (contraction for 'it is') when he meant 'its' = possessive case of 'it'.

But hey, if the POTUS (President of the US) says 'nu-cu-lar' in his state-of-the-union speech three times, I guess it's OK, eh?




~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

magma,

In email etiquette, writing an email in ALL CAPS is akin to shouting.

Now stop shouting, OK?

PK

[DHCJr]

[i]

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

As to the swtiching of the lights: what confused the audience was that fencing was the only sport that recorded the scores as AGAINST a fencer whereas all other sports record he score as FOR
a competitor. Now fencing has joined the rest of the world.

When is the US going to join hte rest of the world? [/b]

You might tell that Tiger Wood. I think he believes that golf is a sport and you are scored against.

The bad point about the timing of the changing of the lights was it caused confusion at the international level. I was at the Junior Worlds as the U.S. Team Armorer and they had two sets of machines Ulhmann/Alstar and St. George. One of the referees had been directing Sabre in the room with the Uhlmann/Alstar machines all day and then was switched to the room with St. George machines. The white light was constantly on the U.S. Fencers side and the referee could not get the light to go out. He started looking around and saw me and asked me to help. I explaned it was on the other fencers side and they change the body cord and it was fixed.

The Uhlmann/Alstar machines had the lights reversed so you didn't need to reverse the floor cords, while the St. George had to have the floor cords reversed.

Not giving the vendors and organizers time to change their equipment was wrong.

[pkt]

Donald,

Golf is as much a sport as pool is, Tiger Woods not withstanding. I started playing golf in the last two years.

Golf scores are not count against someone. You tabulate the total strokes and count it as a variation from par. That's not against the one golfer.

Adaptability to changes is a great asset to have.

I guess at the end of the day the ref you referred to was tired... it's only human.

I saw the 99 Seoul WC, how they couldn't figure out the cause of the white lights was actually quite funny...

PK

[DHCJr]

I don't think it was because he was tired. If the lights on some boxes were set up with your hits on your side and the other half with your hits on the opponents side and you were not told. When you test, you both do it at the same time. Once you started fencing wouldn't you be confused if suddenly the lights were now scoring against you. You wouldn't expect that. I am sure everyone feels the rules should be consistent and show should the boxes. Would you feel cheated if some boxes blocked out the grounding to the lame and some didn't, but you were not told before hand that there was a difference.

[pkt]

All, I'd like to ask those in charge: Bill Oliver for one, these questions:

m.33 sabre glove:
in the 2002 version of the USFA rule it still says that the conductive material has to cover the back of the sword hand down to the fingers.

If this rule is enforced, all the manchettes and electric sabre gloves are illegal. And all user should be, could be carded when they show up on the piste...

They are made to meet the French version of m.33.

Questions: (I posted this in another thread and have yet to get any answer... )

1. when will the USFA amend m.33 to reflect the correct wording of the FIE rule which every sabreur is following.?

2. If one has a strap at the cuff of the sword hand of the lame' thus meeting the letters of the FIE's French m.33, does one need to wear a manchette?

3. I was told that the wearing of a manchette is, according to the USFA, a safety measure, not a targetting measure. Is this true? or is it just someone's imagination? :clown: ?

Thank you.

PK

[edew]

Ok, you won. You've worn us down. The rulebook (mine is 1999) states the back of the hand is part of the target. The rule, as currently accepted by the referees and the fencers, is that the conductive part extends along the whole gauntlet to the wristbone. The back of the hand is not target. I'm sure it will be changed or included as an addendum (if not already) in some future revision.

There is no difference between the USFA's interpretation and the FIE's interpretation of these rules.

[DHCJr]

1. when will the USFA amend m.33 to reflect the correct wording of the FIE rule which every sabreur is following.?

2. If one has a strap at the cuff of the sword hand of the lame' thus meeting the letters of the FIE's French m.33, does one need to wear a manchette?

3. I was told that the wearing of a manchette is, according to the USFA, a safety measure, not a targetting measure. Is this true? or is it just someone's imagination? :clown: ?

Thank you.

PK
[/b][/quote]

You made a very good point. I think I will e-mail the USFA and ask when it will be fixed. Take heart, even in the FIE rule book, rules don't always get updated promptly. The resistence rule for Foil and Epee still hasn't made it into the FIE rule book and it was passed in 1987. The editor has claimed the mistake.

I will answer the 2 and 3 together. Since the sleeve can move it is not fixed and thus does not follow the rules. Also it is a safety issue. If you have a sabre glove (one with lame) it goes over the lame. If you have a regular glove, it should also go over the lame, but I have seen many put it under. If the fencer puts it underneath because it was not designed to go over both a jacket and lame, the manchette serves it's secondary feature of stopping the blade from going up the sleeve.

[pkt]

edew,

sorry to be so repetitious and stubborn
but i got this off the USFA 2002 rules
http://www.fencing101.com/files/2002USFARules.pdf

(b)Glove
m.33The regulation glove for the sword hand must be covered by conductivematerial, either detachable or fixed, on the back of the hand as far as thefingers and on the whole of the gauntlet.

and this is the FIE's rule m.33 from the materials section
http://www.fie.ch/reglement/default.htm
m.33 Le gant réglementaire de la main armée du tireur doit être recouvert de tissu amovible ou fixé
sur toute la manchette jusqu’au dessous du styloïde cubital extérieur (petit os saillant du
poignet), aussi bien dans la position « en garde » que dans la position « bras allongé ».

For those of us whose French is practically non-exitent, here's a translation from
http://babelfish.altavista.com/babelfish/tr

m.33 the lawful glove of the hand armed with the gunner must be covered with fabric removable or fixed on all the cuff jusqu?au [down to - PK] below of the styloïde cubital outside (small covering bone of the wrist), as well in the position "in guard" as in the position "arm lengthened".

So. edew, can you tell me the differece between the 2 paragraphs?

The difference in the target is about 4-inch square more or less.

So, are the refs in the US of A s'posed to ref according to the USFA's latest version of the rules? Or are they to ref according to something that's not in the USFA rule book, according to 'hearsay'?

edew,
what I'm trying to do is to start the sabruers to start a letter writing campaign to the USFA, to Mr. Bill Oliver, FOC, to amend the rules...NOW. Or a ref with bad intent can card everyone... .

So, if you're a sabreur and a member of the USFA which I'm not, let's go...write to the FOC, write to Bill Oliver...let's get this m.33 changed.

Thank you.

PK

[edew]

It's not an issue here in the US. All fencers and referees follow the FIE rules with the target area ending at the wrist bone. This is true at national, regional, or local competitions. No one, besides you, is making a big stink about this. Any formal corrections will be dealt with in time.

Your protestations are not worth virtual paper it's written on.

[pkt]

1. when will the USFA amend m.33 to reflect the correct wording of the FIE rule which every sabreur is following.?

2. If one has a strap at the cuff of the sword hand of the lame' thus meeting the letters of the FIE's French m.33, does one need to wear a manchette?

3. I was told that the wearing of a manchette is, according to the USFA, a safety measure, not a targetting measure. Is this true? or is it just someone's imagination?

I will answer the 2 and 3 together. Since the sleeve can move it is not fixed and thus does not follow the rules. Also it is a safety issue. If you have a sabre glove (one with lame) it goes over the lame. If you have a regular glove, it should also go over the lame, but I have seen many put it under. If the fencer puts it underneath because it was not designed to go over both a jacket and lame, the manchette serves it's secondary feature of stopping the blade from going up the sleeve.
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DHCJr,

Thank you, that's all I'm asking interested parties to do.

3.
Can you quote me the section of the USFA rules that says that it IS a safey issue?
I have to disagree with the USFA - if it is the USFA - on the manchette being a safety issue.

Under the lame' the fencer wears a 800N jacket, right?
On his hand he wears a glove, right?
The gauntlet of the glove goes over the cuff of the 800N jacket, right?

If the point of a sabre goes under a cuff of a lame', it will hit the gauntlet of the glove and the sleeve of the 800N sleeve, right? They didn't dissipate into thin air, right? or turn into gossamer, right?

so, other than the fact that the sabreur wears a lame' with a sleeve, his glove and clothing are no different from that of an epeeist or a foilist, and the USFA deem that inadequate protection?

2.
I've checked the position of my lame' which I've added a strap to the cuff.
In either 'en garde' or 'arm extended' positions the strap holds the cuff in a position so that the styloied cubital exterior bone IS covered, partly because I DO wear a proper sabre glove - with a padded gauntlet - underneath with the gauntlet OVER my 800N jacket's sleeve.
In other words, the strap holds the cuff in the correct positions.

Now DHCJr, I know from you prrofile that you are a certified Level 1 armourer, but are you on the FOC? Can you, like Craig, ask Bill Oliver for a clarification?

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Geez, edew, sorry that you feel that I'm making a big stink?

I think you missed my point.
( Oh Lord, please don't let me be misunderstood...)

If, as you wrote, the refs and sabreurs are following the FIE rules, then why are the USFA rules there?

It's just that in Seattle I was informed that in the US of A the USFA rules are the rules that should be used... Not the FIE rules...

Pls remember, edew, I'm not a member of the USFA, I'm just a canuck, eh?

I'm just trying to get clarification, and do the right thing, that's all.

Thank you for your forbearance.

PK

[DHCJr]

I did not say it clearly. No, it is not an USFA safety rule. It is an FIE safety rule. You wrote, "I've checked the position of my lame' which I've added a strap to the cuff. " In other words, what you have is not normal, so other jackets could move. Has your method of affixing the cuff been homologated by the FIE or been approved by the FIE to fix the jacket? Yes, that is a rhetorical question. The manchette is required to be fixed. The only method, that I know of, that has been approved by the FIE is the finger loop. If the blade makes it up the lame sleeve, it is more likely to break. If it breaks, it is more likely to go through a jacket, even an 800 Newton, which not everyone has.

I am not on the FOC, nor am I on any USFA committees.

I also feel people should write.

[Inquartata]

The rule HAS in fact been amended. There just hasn't been a new edition of the formal rule book reflecting it. The rules change so often, and redrafting the entire manual to reflect each change is so time-consuming and expensive, that it doesn't get done often. The rule changes are instead announced on the website, in the newsletter, in American Fencing, on NAC entry forms, and quite often at tournaments.

It is no different with civil and criminal law. Most states have archaic and bizarre laws still on the books, because it is simply too much trouble for busy legislatures to devote scarce time and resources to Amending or deleting them. Yet no one suffers because they are required by some old statute to have a lighted lantern on their vehicle at night...

[broncofencer]

Earlier in the discussion several safety rules regarding FIE uniforms were brought up. I just wanted to point out (in case a few people did not know) that at your local competitions you fie jacket and knickers are not as safe as you would like to believe. this is because FIE equipment is designed to stop maraging blades which break blut the cheaper equipment breaks sharp and will easily penitrate an FIE jackiet. The best bet is layers against a pointed break as eventually it will stop the blade thus making the thicker non-FIE equipment a little safer in these circumstances. Masks however are a different story and I recommend everyone get an FIE mask.
If you want the USFA to change equipment rules please think it over carefully. I personally can say that in my club I would see people leave the sport or never start at all due to the expense (especially in foil and sabre).

[DHCJr]

To all:

Here is a reply from Jeff Bukantz. One thing most don't know our rule book is not a USFA translation of the French Rule book, but is actually borrowed from the British. That is why there is rules on Spools rather than Reels.

Also about one of the above posts. Most sabre blades are not Maraging.

Dear Donald,

Thanks for your email regarding Rule M.33.

I heard from Bill Oliver, who is my resident FOC webmaster, Rulesbook specialist, and Rules Committee member.

He confirmed that we were given bad information from the Brits, and he will revise the rule ASAP.

Thanks.

Jeff Bukantz

[pkt]

DHC Jr,

Thanks.

Those damn Brits, eh?

Shall we throw another tea party?

Can u ask Jeff to ask Bill about the strap on the cuff, for me?

thanks.


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As a matter of fact, Tuesday night, 2003/02/18, I was fencing steam sabre. My buudy made a point attack, I made a contre-attaque, his point got trapped in the strap of my elbow protector, his blade broke at the hilt at the guard.

Furthermore, veeco, his point caused a dime-sized bruise on my Bracio-radialis. So, let's see how it'll take me to get rid of this bruise.

PK

[Capt. Slo-mo]

Originally posted by pkt
As a matter of fact, Tuesday night, 2003/02/18, I was fencing steam sabre.

Cool! Is there a condensation problem with the lames in steam sabre?

How are the steam hoses armored to keep an errant tip from puncturing them?

With the boilers and all, is there a problem hearing the ref and the beepers on the scoring lights?

[pkt]

it's those damned Brits again... They think they discovered steam and they could rule the world.

I guess they did both eh?

PK