CONSTANT Rule Changes

[McConvilleB]

There has been a post about the new changes handed down by the FIE about masks with visors and the non-combativity rule, and I am glad that those changes were made, they certainly seem necessary.

But has anyone heard about what is happening with the bib in foil? Last I heard it was being tested in cadet and junior events, but there was no mention of it in the aforementioned article.

That being said, why the hell do they change and tweak the rules so often? Timing changes in all three weapons, changes about what you can and can not do. I can't remember the last time I went through a season and didn't hear a director say "Well you're wrong, now THIS is right of way, not THAT."

I know that the simple solution is to fence epee and take things like right of way and target area out of the equation, but frankly epee tactics make me have a stroke and I find the weapon (mostly) boring. Even epee has been tinkered with over the years about lock out times (so I am told, I don't follow the weapon to closely). The fact is that I am a foilist, a foilist who liked to flick, and who liked long, slow, loping attacks that hit AFTER the counter but were still mine. These ideas take timing and timing takes consistency in the application of the rules... something that has not been around in fencing for years.

So the question is WHY?

[Bonehead]

There has been a post about the new changes handed down by the FIE about masks with visors and the non-combativity rule, and I am glad that those changes were made, they certainly seem necessary.

But has anyone heard about what is happening with the bib in foil? Last I heard it was being tested in cadet and junior events, but there was no mention of it in the aforementioned article.

That being said, why the hell do they change and tweak the rules so often? Timing changes in all three weapons, changes about what you can and can not do. I can't remember the last time I went through a season and didn't hear a director say "Well you're wrong, now THIS is right of way, not THAT."

I know that the simple solution is to fence epee and take things like right of way and target area out of the equation, but frankly epee tactics make me have a stroke and I find the weapon (mostly) boring. Even epee has been tinkered with over the years about lock out times (so I am told, I don't follow the weapon to closely). The fact is that I am a foilist, a foilist who liked to flick, and who liked long, slow, loping attacks that hit AFTER the counter but were still mine. These ideas take timing and timing takes consistency in the application of the rules... something that has not been around in fencing for years.

So the question is WHY?

Bib has been a rule in foil for well over a year now. Also right of way/priority hasn't changed for like 20 years or more (Not in my fencing lifetime, and I've heard of no changes from those who have fenced longer). The only thing that changes is the interpretation of right of way, which is kinda hard to prevent from changing because it can't be written down anywhere.

[shlepzig]

In the defense of the OP, the bib has been up in the air with the USFA in America for a while.

As for the rest, you are absolutely right.

-Shlep'

[EldRick]

... because it can't be written down anywhere.

Sounds like Nancy Pelosi has been making the rules for foil...

[fdad]

In the defense of the OP, the bib has been up in the air with the USFA in America for a while.

As for the rest, you are absolutely right.

-Shlep'

I think starting SN 2011 (or thereabouts) its required for points events.

[Bonehead]

Sounds like Nancy Pelosi has been making the rules for foil...

Well if you write it down, it becomes a rule, which will be interpreted; and that interpretation won't be written down.

[SJCFU#2]

Bib has been a rule in foil for well over a year now. Also right of way/priority hasn't changed for like 20 years or more (Not in my fencing lifetime, and I've heard of no changes from those who have fenced longer). The only thing that changes is the interpretation of right of way, which is kinda hard to prevent from changing because it can't be written down anywhere.

In the defense of the OP, the bib has been up in the air with the USFA in America for a while.

As for the rest, you are absolutely right.

It's also been over four years since the last timing change (which BTW, only effected two weapons - I don't think the timing for epee has changed in at least 50 years).

[telkanuru]

It's also been over four years since the last timing change (which BTW, only effected two weapons - I don't think the timing for epee has changed in at least 50 years).

Affected.

[dberke]

The foil bib will be required for team selection events (Div I, Cadet, Junior , and vet) as of August 1st, 2011:

Motion amended to read:
To amend the USFA rulebook to require the use of conductive bibs at foil competitions (Cadet, Junior, Senior and Veterans) that serve as selection events, as of August 1, 2011.
Motion, as amended, Passed.

Dan

[McConvilleB]

It's also been over four years since the last timing change (which BTW, only effected two weapons - I don't think the timing for epee has changed in at least 50 years).

My understanding is that there are more timing changes being kicked around.
And while I understand that interpritations can not be dictated or written down, they seem to change year after year. And I mean that whenever there is a ref clinic in the division, the people who teach it talk about how an attack is being interprited and how it is different from previous seasons/clinics.

As for the four years, I know, but I am just kvetching and am coming back from A) living in a town with no fencing for 2 years and B) knee surgery, so the changes from 4 years ago are still frustrating me because I still get hooked by em.

And still, why? Why add the bib at all?

[mrbiggs]

And still, why? Why add the bib at all?

EDIT: Better answer WF TEAM times out at 14-13...

[tbryan]

And while I understand that interpritations can not be dictated or written down, they seem to change year after year. And I mean that whenever there is a ref clinic in the division, the people who teach it talk about how an attack is being interprited and how it is different from previous seasons/clinics.

I think that the 4 or 5 ref clinics that I've attended since 2004 or so have been fairly consistent in interpretation. I think that there is some difference among the instructors, but I think that it reflect's the particular instructor's way of looking at right of way, not some larger change in how to interpret (foil) right of way.

The "it's different" is more about "it's different from how you might be calling it locally" than "it's different from last year." More local NC referees have been coming more in line with how right-of-way is interpreted nationally. Hopefully, that change will continue. You may see some drastic changes as local referees integrate this new understanding into their calls over the course of a few years.

As for the four years, I know, but I am just kvetching and am coming back from A) living in a town with no fencing for 2 years and B) knee surgery, so the changes from 4 years ago are still frustrating me because I still get hooked by em.

Perhaps that's why it feels like more changes more often to you. Those who were active for the past few years had kind of absorbed the timing change into their game (or left foil entirely) a couple of years ago. I recommend settling down and planning for pretty much an entire year of "rebuilding" to learn and train to the new timings. Hopefully, you have coaches, practice partners, and referees who can help you do that.

Welcome back.

[Inquartata]

Affected.

Huh...his post seemed pretty genuine and natural to me.

And still, why? Why add the bib at all?

Because the bib covers valid target...and bibs have been getting bigger as a consequence. It affords an advantage, though I'm not sure how much of one.

Just be glad that they didn't add part of the weapon arm. They considered doing that, too, for the same reason.

Also, and perhaps most importantly, foilists seem to thrive on a steady diet of frustration. Rule changes=food.

[McConvilleB]

Also, and perhaps most importantly, foilists seem to thrive on a steady diet of frustration. Rule changes=food.

Yeah... if only I liked frustration a little more I would just fence epee

[OROD]

Because the bib covers valid target...and bibs have been getting bigger as a consequence. It affords an advantage, though I'm not sure how much of one.

Just be glad that they didn't add part of the weapon arm. They considered doing that, too, for the same reason.

Really? They considered making the weapon arm valid target because it's been getting bigger? I mean, I know obesity in America is a serious problem, but this... this is just shocking.

[mattacox]

My understanding is that there are more timing changes being kicked around.
And while I understand that interpritations can not be dictated or written down, they seem to change year after year. And I mean that whenever there is a ref clinic in the division, the people who teach it talk about how an attack is being interprited and how it is different from previous seasons/clinics.

The the practical portion of the last NC Division-sponsored referee clinic was a presentation centered primarily around foil. The interpretations of priority were in line with current convention, nothing earth-shattering. There were some interesting mutterings from some attendees that sounded like "Well, that's FIE priority, not how we call it here." Maybe that's what you're getting at, Brendan?

I think that the local level of priority that you are seeing in the state is becoming more and more in line with "national" convention, especially with the influx of excellent nationally-rated referees that NC has seen in foil in the past year or so. Most of these referees are very willing to discuss convention, and why their calls are what they are- I'd use these resources as you come back to the sport- your game could evolve to be even better.

[erik_blank]

Really? They considered making the weapon arm valid target because it's been getting bigger? I mean, I know obesity in America is a serious problem, but this... this is just shocking.

I think that it is less to do with the obesity problem, and more to do with the fact that the rules committee had accidentally been basing their decision on a Stretch Armstrong doll being used for their discussion group....

[bigdawg2121]

I think that the local level of priority that you are seeing in the state is becoming more and more in line with "national" convention, especially with the influx of excellent nationally-rated referees that NC has seen in foil in the past year or so. Most of these referees are very willing to discuss convention, and why their calls are what they are- I'd use these resources as you come back to the sport- your game could evolve to be even better.

Hehehe...the influx of one. However, he is really freaking good at his job. Totally agree with everything Matt said though.

[Inquartata]

I think that it is less to do with the obesity problem, and more to do with the fact that the rules committee had accidentally been basing their decision on a Stretch Armstrong doll being used for their discussion group....

You are both wrong. The real cause is the tendency of foilists to masturbate excessively until their arms reach the proportions of Quagmire's after he discovered internet porn.

[erik_blank]

I find this post horribly offensive! How can anyone possibly do that "excessively?"