Largest private fencing clubs?

[epeemike81]

Originally posted by CvilleFencer
That kind of turned into a rant on why the VA division needs to get more tourneys in a year and allow more clubs to have tourneys. Do most state boards require the hosting club to make 500 to a 1000 on the tourney? The thing that keeps most of our smaller clubs from hosting is that if you do not make a certain dollar amount for the division board you can wind up owing THEM money! That has always seemed really strange to me.

Well, I can only speak for some of the divisions in my area. With NE Div., the clubs don't make money on tournaments, but neither can they lose money. all the money that comes in goes straight into the hands of the division. It is the same way in CT Div, though they will obviously cover cost of gym rental if you need to get a venue to use. In Hudson Berkshire division, the club keeps ALL of the money from a USFA meet. Hudson Berkshire clubs tend to shy away from letting the division have much money or clout, due in large part to their experience with Alan Blakeborough. Many divisions operate with a head tax, so that maybe half of the money stays with the club and the other half goes into the division. I strongly suggest that you get involved in your divisional politics and try to change the policy.

-m

[DJ Apostrophe]

Quick fix on mike's post.
This year the New England division made a change to the club making money policy. The club is allowed to charge the division 'site rental' at a cost of $2/head for first event fencers and $1/event for second event entries, up to a max of $100 (might be $200, but i'm pretty sure its $100) for a two gender weapon, meaning that a club (with sufficent turnout) can make up to $300 for hosting a well-attended open.
-w (member of NEDiv E-board and Tournament Committee)

[DHCJr]

Cvillefencer, I'm sorry I am being so dense, but I still have a problem with your statement. Since it is not a USFA sanctioned tournament, how does a USFA division have any say in the matter? Also is State Board the same as the division? Is there something I am missing?

Sorry for this asking for further explanation.

[oiuyt]

I don't have numbers for BFC, but IIRC the number cited by Linda Merritt at the club marketing talk in Greenville at nationals last July was in the neighborhood of 400. When the USFA was running the promotion where each quarter the club with the most new member received a prize I believe BFC won it 7 out of 8 quarters or something insane like that. RIFAC (in Rhode Island) was frequently 2nd. There's a reason NE div is by far the largest in the country despite having fissioned and lost 3 of the 4 1/2 states that comprised it 5 years ago.

Perhaps VAF is larger. Depends a lot on what constitutes a member possibly.

As further clarification to the NE div policy on clubs making money the old policy included a provision for site rental. Flat fee of something like $75 regardless of size or number of events run. Makes sense to me that this was changed.

Another way of dealing with money coming in is that in Northeast division and Green Mountain division. There the division collects the money, then at the end of the year the profit made by the division (after any holdbacks to provide operating capital or any expenses the division has incurred) is split in 3 parts. 1 part goes to the top fencers in the division as reimbursement for competition costs (targetted at attending nationals, I'm not sure what else, if anything, it can be used for), 1 part gets split between the clubs in proportion to the number of tournament entries by fencers from each club, and the final 1/3 is earmarked for programs that are aimed at encouraging new clubs, new fencers, or that train fencers, coaches, or referees.

There are MANY ways of dealing with tournaments. I'm sure there are a bunch that I've never encountered. Everyone: how does YOUR division handle such things? Feel free to post links to by-laws or other such documents if it makes it easier/clearer. Any feedback on how the system(s) you're familiar with work?

-B :)

[Chris]

Originally posted by oiuyt
(snip)
As further clarification to the NE div policy on clubs making money the old policy included a provision for site rental. Flat fee of something like $75 regardless of size or number of events run. Makes sense to me that this was changed.

Another way of dealing with money coming in is that in Northeast division and Green Mountain division. There the division collects the money, then at the end of the year the profit made by the division (after any holdbacks to provide operating capital or any expenses the division has incurred) is split in 3 parts. 1 part goes to the top fencers in the division as reimbursement for competition costs (targetted at attending nationals, I'm not sure what else, if anything, it can be used for), 1 part gets split between the clubs in proportion to the number of tournament entries by fencers from each club, and the final 1/3 is earmarked for programs that are aimed at encouraging new clubs, new fencers, or that train fencers, coaches, or referees.
(snip)

-B

This is an interesting scheme, although I am not sure how it motivates tournament organizers.

[CvilleFencer]

Originally posted by DHCJr
Cvillefencer, I'm sorry I am being so dense, but I still have a problem with your statement. Since it is not a USFA sanctioned tournament, how does a USFA division have any say in the matter? Also is State Board the same as the division? Is there something I am missing?

Sorry for this asking for further explanation.

You are not being dense in the least. My clarification was simply not well written. Sorry about that.

The VA division has nothing to do with the unofficial meets between clubs. They have no way of knowing about them, and USFA ratings are not handed out, nor is any money charged (except maybe a floor fee by the host).

The reason that we have so many small get together "friendly" tourneys whoever is that the VA division seems to be a bit expensive to host an official tourney.

The quote from the VA website is as follows:

A club that runs a tournament gets 70 percent of the profits, and the division gets the other 30 percent. The club takes all of the losses, so if your club has never hosted a tournament before, you can avoid learning lessons the hard way by getting guidelines on expected revenues and expenditures from this article or from a division officer.

Thirty percent is not unreasonable. There are however a few things that the above statement does not cover and those are what makes it so expensive. Some of those things are as follows:

1. The division makes the hosting club hire the judges, and does not provide any judges of its own. The only thing the "Bought committee person does is collect the money for the division.

2. The division has physical requirements for hosting a tourney and they are rather HUGE even if you are having a small tourney and as such usually require renting a school Gym or large rec. center.

3. It is expected that you provide lunch and drinks and so forth for the judges and the bought committee.

4. Any miscellaneous stuff (tape, extension cords, etc.) has to be supplied by the hosting club.

5. And here is the real kicker, and why it is so hard for small or not for profit clubs to host, all the funds from the competitors go to the Division, and you get whatever is left up to a month after you are done paying the judges, renting the venue, buying all the tape in town, and taking care of a zillion other things.

On top of all that, since we have so few tourneys, we have a few fencers that should be C's or B's but cannot get enough rated fencers to break out and get the rating they deserve. That means that they come out and they will confirm their ratings, but it will be the same people finishing in the same places at almost every tourney. Most people would rather fence within their clubs for free that pay 10-35 dollars for a tourney, plus have to join the USFA, when they know that they will not have much of a chance of getting a better rating.

I am not saying that there is no progression in the ranks, just that it is very slow. Most people I know that are D or higher got their rating outside of VA and will not go any higher than a D unless they travel, as we do not have enough A’s, B’s, and C’s that show up to tourneys.

I hope that answered the questions. In fact it is probably a lot more info than you wanted. I am appreciating all the feedback I am getting about the way that other states do the tourney circuit and it sounds like a palace revolt may indeed be in order. I think many our fencers just accept the way it is and never think to try to change it! Thanks to everyone for showing me some options!

Sorry for the long post!

[DHCJr]

Your explanation was very good. I feel lucky where I am located in the Orange Coast division. It is one of the smallest divisions, but it is able to hold large tournaments for four reasons. The first may sound like a real-estate commercial, location, location, location. We are centrally located between three other larger divisions. The fees are very reasonable $8.00 and that is because it is self directed and the site is at a school and the cost is ridiculously cheap. We can get by with that because they are organized more as a time to enjoy the competition, rather than a competition to dominate others.

Most tournaments are hosted by the division, but we do have two types of club sponsered tournaments. They can sponsor one of the regular tournaments, come up with special prizes and themes. They get a percentage with a minimum. The second way to host it at their club and the main requirement is they have one officer and a Armorer. The officer makes sure the rules are followed. I believe the division only takes $1 - $2 per entry. Most goes to the club. This season, we have only one of each.

I also think you do need a coup. Many years ago, hosting a national level tournament was like you described. Any group that wanted to run one had you pay for directors, that the USFA chose, very few locals, and pay for everything else. The USFA would collect the money, limit the number of entries and then give you your share. Too many groups lost money they refused to host National tournaments. The USFA has been forced to run them themselves and take the chance of making money. Even our section has taken over the running of the sectionals to keep up the quality. The only idea I can suggest is push to get people to join the USFA. I am not suggesting pushing the National aspect, but the local. Get them interested in interested in competing locally. I know I am asking a lot. You might start by pushing family memberships, to those who have multiple fencers, especially if they have one of their family is a member. I hope you the best.

[epeemike81]

Originally posted by CvilleFencer
1. The division makes the hosting club hire the judges, and does not provide any judges of its own. The only thing the "Bought committee person does is collect the money for the division.

do they MAKE the hosting club hire judges, or only make them provide judges? could the club declare the tourney self directed? that is what most other divisions do.

2. The division has physical requirements for hosting a tourney and they are rather HUGE even if you are having a small tourney and as such usually require renting a school Gym or large rec. center.

if this is true, it is downright stupid. you should get involved in your divisional politics and propose that they change meaningless, beauracratic rules like this.

3. It is expected that you provide lunch and drinks and so forth for the judges and the bought committee.

See above about hiring refs.

4. Any miscellaneous stuff (tape, extension cords, etc.) has to be supplied by the hosting club.

This seems reasonable to me.

5. And here is the real kicker, and why it is so hard for small or not for profit clubs to host, all the funds from the competitors go to the Division, and you get whatever is left up to a month after you are done paying the judges, renting the venue, buying all the tape in town, and taking care of a zillion other things.

On top of all that, since we have so few tourneys, we have a few fencers that should be C's or B's but cannot get enough rated fencers to break out and get the rating they deserve. That means that they come out and they will confirm their ratings, but it will be the same people finishing in the same places at almost every tourney. Most people would rather fence within their clubs for free that pay 10-35 dollars for a tourney, plus have to join the USFA, when they know that they will not have much of a chance of getting a better rating.

I am not saying that there is no progression in the ranks, just that it is very slow. Most people I know that are D or higher got their rating outside of VA and will not go any higher than a D unless they travel, as we do not have enough A?s, B?s, and C?s that show up to tourneys.

well, all of this just makes me think even more that you should get involved in divisional politics. In my experience, people are quick to criticize, but trying to get them involved is like pulling teeth. clearly, I don't know if that describes you, just a general observation.

-m

[CvilleFencer]

Ah, epeemike81, ever ready to argue! :-) I will try to answer your questions.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by epeemike81
[B]do they MAKE the hosting club hire judges, or only make them provide judges? could the club declare the tourney self directed? that is what most other divisions do.[B]

It is not a technical requirement that you have to hire the judge, but you do have to schedule the tourney and get permission from the person whom schedules all the tourneys for the division. He is also a senior judge in the division. As such he also schedules the judges. One of his first questions will be how many judges do you need. If you do not want any division judges things get a tad bit uncomfortable, especially when you get to spend the next chunk of your long distance bill hearing about how necessary and useful impartial professional judges are.

The fellow I am discussing seems a nice enough guy and is an excellent judge, but there is a definite conflict of interest if you want to internally direct. Also judges are expected in this division at a USFA event. If they were not there many of the "usual suspects" competitors would howl about wasting their time and money (after all they can compete amongst their clubs and so forth and get the amateur judging). If word got out you were doing internal directing you would not have enough fencers show up to pay for the other expenses.

This last part is not the division’s fault, the fact that our fencers have been spoiled, but it is an overall factor none the less.


[B]if this is true, it is downright stupid. you should get involved in your divisional politics and propose that they change meaningless, beauracratic rules like this.[B]

Yes it is true. While you could quibble a bit about the exact definition of huge, the requirements are not achievable by my home club or the other two clubs I fence with.

[B]well, all of this just makes me think even more that you should get involved in divisional politics. In my experience, people are quick to criticize, but trying to get them involved is like pulling teeth. clearly, I don't know if that describes you, just a general observation.[B]

The cvillefencer part of my nickname is very descriptive. I live in Charlottesville and that is a long way away from the Washington DC/Fairfax area. About 130 miles to be exact. I could maybe be voted in as a member at large, but that would just mean that I would have to drive to DC more often than I do... and still not get anything done. The main officers are all with the local big 3 clubs and they have well over 50 USFA members between them.

The votes are held at tourneys, and as such are only voted on by competitors. Most of those who show up (as they have presumably have advance warning to show up and vote for your coach at XYZ tourney) fence with the three large clubs in the NVA area. The officers are club officials at the big three and as such this these clubs and this group of fencers is where the decisions are made.

In all fairness I have never tried to get a seat on the board but to give you an idea of how perfunctory it is, the last elections were held at a foil tourney (no epee or saber guys unless they drove in just for the vote) and lasted for about 2 minutes!

It consisted of the current chair saying, "Okay before we fence we need to do the elections. All in favor of retaining **** as Chair say aye, all in favor of retaining *** as secretary say aye (, and all in favor of retaining **** as treasurer say aye", and so on.

No time for speeches, official counts, ballots, agendas, or "well before we vote what do you intend to do" type comments. If you had tried you would likely have been mauled by angry foilists, as you would have been holding up the tourney that was already starting 45 minutes late. Besides, most of the people you would have been challenging would have been directing your boughts that day! :-)

I am not saying that the division is some evil organization trying to squeeze out any chance of the small fry. In fact they are almost all a great group of people and are excellent directors and competitors. It is just that they are like most entrenched bueracracys in that they use the rules to keep themselves in power and foster their point of view.

In all fairness I do not know of any great effort to displace them either, and I would agree with you when you say that most people would rather complain than take action themselves. Hell I am one of them.

I started the first open admission "not part of a college" club in my city, got a board of directors assembled, am in the process of getting non-profit status, serve as General Director for the Salle, and even found some great people who wanted to learn to fence.

I also volunteer to assist in teaching fencing at a local college and fence with a living history group. I am afraid I am not the Sparticus to lead the VA division to its new sunrise as I spend between 14 and 20 hours a week on fencing already (and I volunteer all of it for free) and my Fiancée "a non-fencer" demands a little bit of my attention as well as my paying job.

Okay, I might be just a little bit defensive about the tacit implication that I do not contribute to my local fencing scene.

Anyway, that is all terribly one sided and strictly my point of view, but if you had wanted someone else’s I guess you would have asked them! This is just how I see things in the division. Others may see them different and I respect their opinion, as long as they are A: Not French, and B: Admit I am right.

[epeemike81]

Originally posted by CvilleFencer
Ah, epeemike81, ever ready to argue! :-) I will try to answer your questions.

I didn't think I was arguing... actually, I think I was offering solutions. that being said, this one will probably be a little more argumentative, but not much.

It is not a technical requirement that you have to hire the judge, but you do have to schedule the tourney and get permission from the person whom schedules all the tourneys for the division. He is also a senior judge in the division. As such he also schedules the judges. One of his first questions will be how many judges do you need. If you do not want any division judges things get a tad bit uncomfortable, especially when you get to spend the next chunk of your long distance bill hearing about how necessary and useful impartial professional judges are.

The fellow I am discussing seems a nice enough guy and is an excellent judge, but there is a definite conflict of interest if you want to internally direct. Also judges are expected in this division at a USFA event. If they were not there many of the "usual suspects" competitors would howl about wasting their time and money (after all they can compete amongst their clubs and so forth and get the amateur judging). If word got out you were doing internal directing you would not have enough fencers show up to pay for the other expenses.

This last part is not the division?s fault, the fact that our fencers have been spoiled, but it is an overall factor none the less.

I suggest you tell him "yes, I DO see the advantage to independant refs, and when they will work for free, I will be glad to use them." Then explain that you can't afford to hire them. As for the fencers, point out that self directed is good enough for some higher level competitions in other parts of the country. In addition, level with them. tell them you can't afford to hire refs because of divisional policy. THAT is how you affect change. If it is a choice between self directed or no tourney, everybody I know would choose self directed.

Yes it is true. While you could quibble a bit about the exact definition of huge, the requirements are not achievable by my home club or the other two clubs I fence with.

not knowing the requirements, I am going to abstain from this portion of the conversation. if there are any other VA fencers on the board, I would love to hear your 2 cents.

The cvillefencer part of my nickname is very descriptive. I live in Charlottesville and that is a long way away from the Washington DC/Fairfax area. About 130 miles to be exact. I could maybe be voted in as a member at large, but that would just mean that I would have to drive to DC more often than I do... and still not get anything done. The main officers are all with the local big 3 clubs and they have well over 50 USFA members between them.

is this meant to imply that over 50 USFA members is large????? if so, then I am quite confused by your statement that VFA is the largest club.

The votes are held at tourneys, and as such are only voted on by competitors. Most of those who show up (as they have presumably have advance warning to show up and vote for your coach at XYZ tourney) fence with the three large clubs in the NVA area. The officers are club officials at the big three and as such this these clubs and this group of fencers is where the decisions are made.

In all fairness I have never tried to get a seat on the board but to give you an idea of how perfunctory it is, the last elections were held at a foil tourney (no epee or saber guys unless they drove in just for the vote) and lasted for about 2 minutes!

It consisted of the current chair saying, "Okay before we fence we need to do the elections. All in favor of retaining **** as Chair say aye, all in favor of retaining *** as secretary say aye (, and all in favor of retaining **** as treasurer say aye", and so on.

No time for speeches, official counts, ballots, agendas, or "well before we vote what do you intend to do" type comments. If you had tried you would likely have been mauled by angry foilists, as you would have been holding up the tourney that was already starting 45 minutes late. Besides, most of the people you would have been challenging would have been directing your boughts that day! :-)

well, as a member of the division, you CERTAINLY have a right to all of the various parts of an election, so request them! also, I don't know how your divisional board is structured. In NE Div, there is an executive commitee which makes the decisions beyond the officers. it is usually fairly easy to get on that board, especially as every club is entitled to representation. Given that you founded a club, you should definitely have representation. if you are unwilling to drive to the meetings, well, that I can't help you with. oiuyt and dj apostrophe frequently drive in excess of 100 miles for exec. com. meetings.

Okay, I might be just a little bit defensive about the tacit implication that I do not contribute to my local fencing scene.

no such implication existed. the implication that did exist you have admitted to above.

-m

[swordsen]

Sounds like it is time to seceed from the Union.

[magma]

800 that's a militia! I almost went to DC rather than my current and secret location, it's an area that I have some familiarity with, and found it to be a fantastic city. It would totally mayham to go into a salle and see like 800 people milling around waiting to fence.
Viva fencing, Viva fencing salles!

[oiuyt]

Originally posted by Chris
This is an interesting scheme, although I am not sure how it motivates tournament organizers.

:confused:

It doesn't.

The theory is that people want to host because it means a local competition for their fencers (not like anything in the area is far from anywhere else). Having it at your club means more of your fencers are likely to go. It also could be perceived to add some bit of status. It's something which all the clubs do, the bigger and/or more influential clubs more often (these are not unconnected factors). Why does Open Source programming work? People are willing to give back, even private for-profit clubs. It helps the clubs to host even if it doesn't directly help them financially. Even if not looked at in any other way, the cost of the space, which is already paid for in dedicated (ie non-shared space) clubs, being free means more money for the division. Money the division takes in eventually gets back to the clubs in the form of better and more divisional equipment, better tournaments, or other efforts to support and grow fencing in the area. If fencing in the area is strong the clubs will do well. Granted the clubs have less direct control over money the division has than they would if they had the money themselves, but it's not like the money leaves the fencing world.

-B :)