Off the Strip

[Capt. Slo-mo]

Actual overheard conversation during a men's NAC foil bout:

1st person: "Whoa! Call the USFA, Call the papers!" (imitates newspaper hawker yelling out headline) "Foilist lands off-target, scores white light!"

2nd person: "That IS news!"


They both snicker. Sabrists, what do you expect?

[Capt. Slo-mo]

Now that we've had fun debate foot-plane oddities, let's get back close to the original question.

If you are fencing someone who is consistently stepping off the strip, but is not being called for it, what's the best idea?

1. Ignore it, and figure its a turn of the karmic wheel.

2. Rip off your mask and offer your glasses to the referee.

3. Point to the side of the strip, step off with your foot and
raise a hand questioningly.

4. Ask the referee why he is not calling halt for the illegal action.

5. Demand that he START calling halt for the illegal action.

6. Go to the bout committee and ask for three of the Loomis
family members to form an advisory task force.

7. Stop the bout, go to the bout committee and demand
line judges, then wonder why the referee nevers calls
another point for you unless it's a single light.

8. Threaten the referee with posting his name on the Fencing.Net
board, and inviting all the members to rearrange the
letters of his name into humiliating anagrams.

9. Calmly approach the referee after the halt, and with a puzzled
look, inquire about "that new one foot off the strip rule"
everyone's talking about.

10. After each successful attack by your opponent--following an
out of bounds step--go to the point of dispute, throw
down your mask and stomp around it, shrieking at the
top of your lungs. At the end of the tirade, punctuate your
point by whacking the area outside the strip with your
weapon, screaming "OUT! OUT! OUT!" after each impact.
Be careful to hit outside the strip, so you don't run afoul of
'bending/straightening weapon on strip' penalty.

[darius]

Stepping off the strip is one more trick in the book. I'll take the loss of a meter rather than the loss of a touch.

Much of the tactical advantage of stepping off the strip is to draw the halt and thus saving oneself from a hit. That advantage is negated if the ref refuses to call halt.

Adjust your tactics to take that into account -- if you think you can pursuade the ref to notice it, I'll politely mention it. Otherwise, don't worry about where your opponent is --- just hit them!

Barring that, option # 10. Definitely.

darius

[a517dogg]

Uhh, during a normal break just be like

"DO YOU KEEP SCORE IN BRAILLE?!? WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU, CAN YOU NOT SEE HE'S CHEATING!??!? WAKE THE $#$^$%&^% UP YOU ^&*^$%&^$%875 (&*^$%&^$%*&%^ (&*%&^$&%^$&*^$%&^$%*%&."

in a calm and professional manner.

[veeco]

Originally posted by darius
Stepping off the strip is one more trick in the book. I'll take the loss of a meter rather than the loss of a touch.

Much of the tactical advantage of stepping off the strip is to draw the halt and thus saving oneself from a hit. That advantage is negated if the ref refuses to call halt.

Adjust your tactics to take that into account -- if you think you can pursuade the ref to notice it, I'll politely mention it. Otherwise, don't worry about where your opponent is --- just hit them!

Barring that, option # 10. Definitely.

darius

Stepping out of bounds to avoid a touch is a card.

I think we are talking about people who attack from the outside of the strip.

What I do usually with these people is that I try and invite them on my outside lines (I'm a lefty) and then I finish inside.

[Inquartata]

Originally posted by veeco
Ooooh bad, sabre fencer.

Just you never mind how bad a sabre fencer I am!

And my answer to Capt. Slo-Mo's question is...whichever choice presents the most fertile ground for argument, of course, heh heh...

But seriously, I'd opt for bringing it politely to the notice of the ref, and if he continues to "miss" it, just live with it thereafter.
( The sabre fencers version of this is the crossover. )

[magma]

I want to be supportive here, but, all I see is another evil director.

[Inquartata]

Isn't that the villain of the "Austin Powers" movies? Director Evil?

[magma]

i haven't seen it, but i love austin powers, is he single?

[Capt. Slo-mo]

Originally posted by Inquartata
But seriously, I'd opt for bringing it politely to the notice of the ref, and if he continues to "miss" it, just live with it thereafter.
( The sabre fencers version of this is the crossover. )

See, now THAT one (the crossover in sabre) seems easier. If a fencer starts crossing over on the strip, I just do the little "running" motion with my index and middle fingers to the referee. They never make the call on that point, but it often makes them watch more carefully for the rest of the bout.

[magma]

Thou Shalt Not Run!

I'm starting to move into the direction of letting the director see everything on his own, unless the opponent continually does the same thing, then I'd just speak up.

Motioning the Director using tacit agreements doesnt sound cricket. unless your saving someone's hinie, think about it.

[Inquartata]

Originally posted by Capt. Slo-mo
See, now THAT one (the crossover in sabre) seems easier. If a fencer starts crossing over on the strip, I just do the little "running" motion with my index and middle fingers to the referee. They never make the call on that point, but it often makes them watch more carefully for the rest of the bout.

Unfortunately, it also warns the fencer not to do it again, which precludes the possibility of your getting points from his repetition of it.

( Plus, if it makes him think about his footwork, it's a "mind game". And I can't have that! So I always try to bring it to the ref's attention when the opponent isn't looking, he heh... )

[Capt. Slo-mo]

OOOOH! Excellent point!

Next time, I'll screen my little "running" man sign with my body as I walk back past the director.

[pkt]

hey edew and veeco,

back to your postings at the very beginning of this thread - I just joined this thread - I guess that's the difference between a so-so ref and a good ref, eh?

A goo dref should see everything most of the time, non-sword arm parries, head wire off in sabre, the curvature of the blades in the 'en garde' position, etc.

If a fencer is stuck with a ref who, shall we say, needs help, Cpt Slo-mo, he is allowed to ask the ref for arm or side judges, no need to go to the bout committee, unless of course the ref refuses...

Especially in sabre when one faces an opponent who has a fondness for fle'che attacks and if one suspects him doing passe avants in the fle'che, one asks for side judges.

Asking for side-judges is part of the mind game... The offending fencer will now fence more cautiously hence, not 100%

PK

[magma]

wasn't me. my name has been used alot on the net, and i'm in more a vulnerable position. the only time i had to say anything was when some people around me in public started talking about stuff that we write about, and it was obvious that i was being followed around.

Let's say this, we're on a public net. we fence, others may not. some like to talk about fencing, others like to fish around, some may be in wheelchairs and need the entertainment and encouragement for fencing. We should try to drop things, put things into perspective. Some of us know each other a long time, years, we squabble like kids, and we shouldn't. I like the net because we can analyze our differences and work things out as a fencing community.

It's all about how we can try to work out problems in the net,

[magma]

sorry to go on about this, but, it appears from the discussion above, that many of the issues being batted about concern, directors, bout committee, side judges, in essence how to determine the outcome of a bout, which is important to the fencer as he or she wants to move up in their ratings. I truely believe that if we are honest about this, we can see that in all competitions usfa for ratings especially, all directors for all bouts need to come from a source other than the participating fencers. If a particular club hosts a competition, then they should work out all of the details about how many participants, = how many strips= how many directors needed = instruction sheets to all participants about equipment requirements. The end, it would solve many things.

I stand corrected on the bout committee issue, but indefense of the above author, let me say that when I did ask for clarificaiton on something, I was directed to the bout committee for much the same issue.

[Gav]

I've seen plenty of people enforce this rule, me for one, I also get mad when people don't enforce this rule.

[pkt]

I've been criticised of being overly strict with the youngster and beginner. So I've taken this tack:
At the beginning of the pool of beginners or juniors, I'll tell them I'll direct them as strictly as I know, so they won't get a shock when they go into the 'real world' ...
I think this is best for them.

it's like fencing with the kids and pulling punches, same difference -no good for them.

PK

[Capt. Slo-mo]

OK, since this topic has been bashed about in the "Rules" thread recently as well, I'll revive my earlier angst.

At the JOs, there were many many many instances of fencers going off the strip, especially doing "flunges" in sabre. (Since we were being held hostage a half mile from the other weapons in the "way back" building, sabre was mostly what we saw).

Time after time, no halt was called for either one or two feet off the strip, and in several cases, match altering touches were recorded without penalty.

In only one instance did I see the rule enforced. A fencer was retreating wildly towards his end of the strip. He went off the sideline with both feet, and a halt was called. When his opponent was advanced the required metre, the fencer could not come on guard without being off the strip end line, so the touch was awarded to his opponent.

I applaud that referee, and wonder why others find it so hard to enforce.

[edew]

Sabre is a tough weapon to referee. It's hard enough, even for the top-level referees, to watch the blade action, that to ask them to also watch where the feet are, whether feet crossed going forward, and other "below the belt" actions, is quite a chore.

In many cases, the excuse, lame as it might be, is "well, that's the name of the game...deal with it."

In other cases, they do ask for side judges who watch for crossing feet and going off the side.

That way, the main referee can concentrate on the hand/arm/body actions.