01-27-2003, 02:39 PM
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#1 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: New England
Posts: 135
| Referees Required to Call Actions?
I was at a tournament this weekend, and the director would only raise one hand or the other and declare a touch. When asked (politely) to explain the action, he refused. Is this permissible? | 
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01-27-2003, 02:42 PM
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#2 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 1999 Location: NJ, USA
Posts: 1,191
| Which weapon?
Paolo
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01-27-2003, 02:51 PM
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#3 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: New England
Posts: 135
| Quote: Originally posted by damianip
Which weapon?
Paolo | Sabre. It was at a Junior World Cup in Canada. | |
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01-27-2003, 03:11 PM
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#4 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 1999 Location: NJ, USA
Posts: 1,191
| Quote: Originally posted by vigia
Sabre. It was at a Junior World Cup in Canada. | Well then, I would think that they are indeed required to call the action.
However, I have seen "leisurely" directors not re-call the phrase on one light actions.
It seems strange to me that this would happen at a WC.
Paolo
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"He is a man of splendid abilities but utterly corrupt. He shines and stinks like rotten mackerel by moonlight." "Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin to slit throats."
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01-27-2003, 03:22 PM
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#5 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 1999 Location: NJ, USA
Posts: 1,191
| From the US rules (mostly taken from the FIE rules): Quote:
t.42 As soon as the bout has stopped, the Referee briefly analyzes the
actions that compose the final phrase d'armes.
For finals, the Referee may make use of a television monitor to check
decisions should he or she be uncertain.
After reaching his decision regarding the materiality of a touch, the
Referee, by applying the rules, decides to which fencer a touch is to be
awarded, whether both are touched (épée) or if there is no valid touch
(cf. t.55ss, t.64ss, t.74ss).
The Referee would use the following gestures (see Figure 3, p. 16).
| Paolo
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"He is a man of splendid abilities but utterly corrupt. He shines and stinks like rotten mackerel by moonlight." "Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin to slit throats."
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01-27-2003, 03:27 PM
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#6 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: New England
Posts: 135
| Quote: Originally posted by damianip
Well then, I would think that they are indeed required to call the action.
However, I have seen "leisurely" directors not re-call the phrase on one light actions.
It seems strange to me that this would happen at a WC.
Paolo | Refused. Two lights would go off, he'd raise one hand, end of discussion. Shook his head "no" the first time he was asked. Threatened a card the second time. | |
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01-27-2003, 03:29 PM
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#7 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 1999 Location: NJ, USA
Posts: 1,191
| Time to call the bout committee!!!!
It's kind of hard to fence a director who won't let you know what he/she is thinking.
Paolo
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"He is a man of splendid abilities but utterly corrupt. He shines and stinks like rotten mackerel by moonlight." "Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin to slit throats."
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01-27-2003, 03:30 PM
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#8 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: New England
Posts: 135
| Quote: Originally posted by damianip
From the US rules (mostly taken from the FIE rules):
Paolo | But nowhere does it say that the director has to say it out loud. He/she has to analyse and come to a decision. Then it *suggests* hand motions. So maybe it isn't required to explain it. | |
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01-27-2003, 03:36 PM
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#9 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: New England
Posts: 135
| Quote: Originally posted by damianip
Time to call the bout committee!!!!
It's kind of hard to fence a director who won't let you know what he/she is thinking.
Paolo | Except that of course you don't want to piss this guy off any worse than is necessary, since he will probably be directing later on and you could get him in your DE's... | |
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01-27-2003, 03:49 PM
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#10 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 1999 Location: NJ, USA
Posts: 1,191
| Quote: Originally posted by vigia
But nowhere does it say that the director has to say it out loud. He/she has to analyse and come to a decision. Then it *suggests* hand motions. So maybe it isn't required to explain it. | I believe that this phrase:
"As soon as the bout has stopped, the Referee briefly analyzes the actions that compose the final phrase d'armes."
implies that the analysis is for "public consumption"
However, the hand signals, executed properly are pretty clear, especially since there is now a "parry" hand signal. http://www.fie.ch/reglement/GESTES%2...ARBITRAGE1.pdf
and http://www.fie.ch/reglement/GESTES%2...ARBITRAGE2.pdf
Did the director use hand signals?
Paolo
__________________
"He is a man of splendid abilities but utterly corrupt. He shines and stinks like rotten mackerel by moonlight." "Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin to slit throats."
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01-27-2003, 05:12 PM
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#11 | | Quit (no longer with us)
Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: usa
Posts: 1,307
| Quote: Originally posted by damianip
From the US rules (mostly taken from the FIE rules):
Paolo |
it does not say that the ref has to analyze the action out loud. i understand, sometimes i go on mute also. according to some people we all SHOULD be able to recite lengthly explanations, but it sometimes invites debate. | |
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01-27-2003, 07:25 PM
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#12 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Dana Hall School, Wellesely, MA
Posts: 3,821
| regardless of legality, it is rather appalling that you came across this at a world cup.
-m | |
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01-28-2003, 01:45 AM
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#13 | | Curmudgeon-in-Chief
Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Somewhere in your nightmares!
Posts: 23,534
| On the WC sabre tape I have been watching, the vast majority seem to use gestures almost entirely, with occasional verbal addenda such as "pas de touche".
I imagine that the presumption is that at this level the fencers will be able to distill all they need to know from the hand signals. Very few actions are so complicated that these prove inadequate to the task...
Probably speeds things along immensely, too... | |
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01-28-2003, 02:10 AM
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#14 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Dana Hall School, Wellesely, MA
Posts: 3,821
| Quote: Originally posted by Inquartata
On the WC sabre tape I have been watching, the vast majority seem to use gestures almost entirely, with occasional verbal addenda such as "pas de touche".
I imagine that the presumption is that at this level the fencers will be able to distill all they need to know from the hand signals. Very few actions are so complicated that these prove inadequate to the task...
Probably speeds things along immensely, too... | I was under the impression that this ref didn't even use hand signals, but maybe I'm wrong.
Vigia, how bout it?
-m | |
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01-28-2003, 02:53 AM
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#15 | | Fencing Expert
Join Date: May 2000 Location: The valley of the -hot- sun, NorCal
Posts: 3,184
| Quote: Originally posted by Inquartata
On the WC sabre tape I have been watching, the vast majority seem to use gestures almost entirely, with occasional verbal addenda such as "pas de touche".
I imagine that the presumption is that at this level the fencers will be able to distill all they need to know from the hand signals. Very few actions are so complicated that these prove inadequate to the task...
Probably speeds things along immensely, too... | Maybe, but this was a Junior world cup where the educational value of this analysis has to be kept in mind.
Plus there did not seem to be such a big amount of competitors to warrant the use of time saving measures.
__________________ - Epee is the Louis Vuitton bag of fencing: only the best can get it, and the rest of the masses must content themselves with cheap knockoffs (sabre, foil)
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01-29-2003, 06:04 AM
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#16 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: UK
Posts: 784
| At the World Cups I have been to (foil), refs have always used both vocal phrasing (in French) and comprehensive hand signals.
Its absolutely awful if your ref did not vocally phrase what he is calling. A ref would not get away with it at a FIE refereeing exam...
Out of interest, were most of his calls (i.e. to which fencer he awrded the hit) correct?
Boo | |
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01-29-2003, 09:08 AM
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#17 | | Armorer
Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Moutain Home ID
Posts: 594
| When I referee sabre, I have been told I talk too much and to keep it to the bare min. To use hand signals more. Has the more you talk the more chance of the fencers potesting a called. So now I used nothing but hand signals.
Tim  
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01-29-2003, 07:39 PM
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#18 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: New England
Posts: 135
| Quote: Originally posted by epeemike81
I was under the impression that this ref didn't even use hand signals, but maybe I'm wrong.
Vigia, how bout it?
-m | No hand signals. | |
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01-29-2003, 07:46 PM
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#19 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: New England
Posts: 135
| Quote: Originally posted by Boo Boo
Out of interest, were most of his calls (i.e. to which fencer he awrded the hit) correct?
Boo | Well, that's always debatable! The US fencer lost, so of course the calls were wrong. <g>. In all honesty they did look predjudicial to me, but I'm not always correct by any stretch either.
From other posts I've read over time about World Cup referreeing, I was just chalking it up to "welcome to international competition." | |
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02-18-2003, 06:23 PM
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#20 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Vancouver, BC, the WET coast of Canada
Posts: 1,971
| Vigia,
I think you should file a complaint to the FIE as well as the CFF.
CFF: http://fencing.ca/english_index.html
direct your email to the Technical director who may want o pass on your complaint to the FIE...
If for no other reason than to have them investigate this ref's aberrant behaviour.
PK | |
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