US sabre - what is happening?!?

[Dalton]

Just got back from the London men's sabre world cup event. Keeth Smart finally got his first win on the circuit, but I am willing to bet it was not the last one. Hell, we may be facing the fact that there is an american world number 1 in the FIE rankings.

This rises the question, what has changed so dramatically in the US sabre fencing? We are seeing the US fencers rise through the rankings in both men and women. Any reasons for this sudden rise in the level of sabre, while the other weapons seem not to have the same momentum?

[counter riposte]

Theatre.

[Peach]

A number of dedicated coaches and some athletes who take the sport seriously.

[CvilleFencer]

It also seems to me that Saber, having the rep as the most aggressive, painful, and brutal weapon seems to draw the folks who are very driven to win and are intensely competitive.

That drive is what helps them focused in and the hatred of losing is what keeps them in the Salle for hours on end when others have long gone home to hang with friends or whatever.

Say what you will about saber fencers. Brutal thugs, strip Vikings, knuckle dragging goons, blood fisted pirates, "I love it when people say this stuff about me :-)" America seems to produce great saber fencers, and it is the only Olympic medal we seem to have a real shot at.

Now if we could just get some bloodthirsty foilists I would be a happy man.

Oh yea, Saber Fencers are hard like woodpecker lips. “Can anyone guess what my fist weapon was?”

[edew]

I purchased the "Choice of Weapons" DVD while I was in San Diego. It was a documentary about Aki, Herby, Keeth, and several others. What I saw in the footage of Aki and others fencing in the World Cup events is that they didn't have confidence. Watch how Aki fenced Durkan for the gold in the 2000 Nat'ls versus how Aki (or Herby) fenced some of the European fencers in the footage from Boston or Greece and other places.

The difference is all mental. Aki, et al., more or less collapsed mentally against those because they didn't have confidence. Not because they didn't have the technical or physical (or even mental thought-process) skills. What they lacked -- then -- was the balls to go after the people.

I think, at least with Keeth (and maybe for others, as we'll see soon), is that he has gotten the balls. The floodgates have opened and the US sabre fencers will unleash their skills without themselves holding back what they can accomplish. I think the US sabre fencers will be kicking some MLA (major-league-4$$).

[damianip]

Originally posted by edew
I purchased the "Choice of Weapons" DVD while I was in San Diego. It was a documentary about Aki, Herby, Keeth, and several others. SNIP!!!!

Eric,

From whom did you purchase it?

I'd like to get a copy.

Paolo

[darius]

Eric, how was the documentary? A big crew here was hoping for a wider release, but it never made it to Rochester, which is a pretty hot town for small films.

Can it be ordered anywhere?

darius

[haggis]

Let's not get carried away. London is a weak World Cup event - no Italians, Russians, French, Hungarians, etc. Don't get me wrong, it's a fine result but if Keeth Smart finishes the year top of the World Cup rankings I'll be extremely surprised.

[Capt. Slo-mo]

Originally posted by Dalton
This rises the question, what has changed so dramatically in the US sabre fencing? We are seeing the US fencers rise through the rankings in both men and women. Any reasons for this sudden rise in the level of sabre, while the other weapons seem not to have the same momentum?

I think a big part of it is a maturing of American Sabre fencers who now have had a couple of years of success on the World Cup circuit.

We're a little more familiar with Women's sabre...and I think a large part of the success can be laid at the feet of the Women's Nat'l Team coach Ed Korfanty of the Oregon Fencing Alliance and the Nellya coach, Arkady Burdan (sp?)in Atlanta. They've found a way to take smart women and make them into smart fencers. It's a case of brains, not brawn for the women--even though they're very tough competitors.

[Repechage]

Originally posted by darius
Eric, how was the documentary? A big crew here was hoping for a wider release, but it never made it to Rochester, which is a pretty hot town for small films.

Can it be ordered anywhere?

darius

The DVD of "Choice of Weapons" was for sale at Steve Mormando's video table for Belle & Blade (nominal URL www.belleandblade.com/, but they don't seem to carry it) in San Diego. It was a pleasant little documentary, a little heavy on Peter Westbrook's rambling high-speed hectoring of his athletes, which focused on Herby Raynaud, Akhi Spencer-El, and other Peter Westbrook Foundation athletes including Keeth and Erinn Smart.

[135711]

Originally posted by haggis
Let's not get carried away. London is a weak World Cup event - no Italians, Russians, French, Hungarians, etc. Don't get me wrong, it's a fine result but if Keeth Smart finishes the year top of the World Cup rankings I'll be extremely surprised.

i'm surprised, why wouldn't italy, france or spain attend your events, it's only a stones throw away?

[veeco]

Originally posted by haggis
Let's not get carried away. London is a weak World Cup event - no Italians, Russians, French, Hungarians, etc. Don't get me wrong, it's a fine result but if Keeth Smart finishes the year top of the World Cup rankings I'll be extremely surprised.

I would have to agree with this. I think if Keeth had gone to the same competition last year he would have expected to win it as well.

I think that his second place in Moscow is much more significan than his victory in London, even though he got more points from London than from Moscow.

I doubt that last year he would have finished second in a competition the level of Moscow's.

Let's see how he does in the first Grand Prix event before hoping he gets top of the WC rankings. Nevertheless, I wish him the best of luck on this endeavour!

[Jason]

Originally posted by edew
I purchased the "Choice of Weapons" DVD while I was in San Diego. It was a documentary about Aki, Herby, Keeth, and several others. What I saw in the footage of Aki and others fencing in the World Cup events is that they didn't have confidence. Watch how Aki fenced Durkan for the gold in the 2000 Nat'ls versus how Aki (or Herby) fenced some of the European fencers in the footage from Boston or Greece and other places.

The difference is all mental. Aki, et al., more or less collapsed mentally against those because they didn't have confidence. Not because they didn't have the technical or physical (or even mental thought-process) skills. What they lacked -- then -- was the balls to go after the people.

I think, at least with Keeth (and maybe for others, as we'll see soon), is that he has gotten the balls. The floodgates have opened and the US sabre fencers will unleash their skills without themselves holding back what they can accomplish. I think the US sabre fencers will be kicking some MLA (major-league-4$$).

Eric is absolutely right.
If you compare our sabre fencers to the Europeans, you'll often find that our fencers put in more time, have better technique, are faster, etc.
What kills our fencers is that they believe that the Europeans are better because, well, they're European.

I have never seen a sabre fencer anywhere in the world with better technique than Akhi.
In the club and at US competitions, he fences fantastically: great tactics, great timing, great reaction, great mobility.
Put him in an international competition and he turns to poo.
I think he is the best example in US fencing of how one can crush one's self mentally.
The Europeans don't usually have the same problems.
A big reason might be that for a top Frenchie to fence a top German means a few hours on a train, back home for dinner.
They can--and do--get to fence each other all the time.
For the US, European fencing is a world away and, therefore, some big mystery that kills us psychologically.

[veeco]

Originally posted by edew
I purchased the "Choice of Weapons" DVD while I was in San Diego. It was a documentary about Aki, Herby, Keeth, and several others. What I saw in the footage of Aki and others fencing in the World Cup events is that they didn't have confidence. Watch how Aki fenced Durkan for the gold in the 2000 Nat'ls versus how Aki (or Herby) fenced some of the European fencers in the footage from Boston or Greece and other places.

The difference is all mental. Aki, et al., more or less collapsed mentally against those because they didn't have confidence. Not because they didn't have the technical or physical (or even mental thought-process) skills. What they lacked -- then -- was the balls to go after the people.

I think, at least with Keeth (and maybe for others, as we'll see soon), is that he has gotten the balls. The floodgates have opened and the US sabre fencers will unleash their skills without themselves holding back what they can accomplish. I think the US sabre fencers will be kicking some MLA (major-league-4$$).

I watched the DVD a couple of times, and I have to agree with you on that. The way they are fencing in the world cups is definitely not as aggressive as we see them in the National Events.

There was a bout that was actually very interesting in the video where we see Harvey Miller fencing Casares from Spain. Miller is a young fencer and it might have been his first world cup. Casares is a more experienced fencer and had been on the circuit for a while. As we see the bout, Casares is getting upset by some calls (that we don't see) and is arguing about the score. Miller took advantage of that and beat him 5-2. That would be quite a significant victory for a young fencer on the circuit, be it an American or other, but the reason why Miller won that bout is that you can clearly see that he is more aggressive and actually believes in himself more than the other, older guys seemed to. Miller might not have even known who Casares was, and that might be the reason why he went into the bout without any other feeling than: "Here is another guy that I have to beat", "Instead of, oh my God, this guy finished in the top xx of last year's rankings, how am I supposed to beat him?"

[DHCJr]

Aki seems to wilt under the bright lights. At the 2000 Olympics he was in the IBM commercial and he was the only one that did not make it out of the first round. What is more significant was the NAC in Reno two years ago, there was a Japanese film crew following him around. This was not against the Europeans, but he didn’t even make it to the final 8.

Now Ivan is just the opposite. Put him in the limelight and he shines. At his last Junior Worlds, everyone knew who Ivan was. He was the one with Red, White and Blue hair and Blue White and Red Lame. Also he led the team and himself to a Gold medal for the team and a Silver for himself.

[edew]

Originally posted by damianip
Eric,

From whom did you purchase it?

I'd like to get a copy.

Paolo

Belle & Blade, the "battle videos and DVDs" company of Steve Mormando. $25 ($24.80, but I let them keep the change...rich boy that I am.)

[edew]

Originally posted by haggis
Let's not get carried away. London is a weak World Cup event - no Italians, Russians, French, Hungarians, etc. Don't get me wrong, it's a fine result but if Keeth Smart finishes the year top of the World Cup rankings I'll be extremely surprised.

There were decent fencers on that list of finishers: Medina, Steven and Dennis Bauer, Willy Kothny, James Williams, Ivan Lee, Aki Spencer-El, Michael Golia...

[edew]

Gee...several people are agreeing with me.

Must...change...topic...

(maybe I'll go visit the Water Cooler forum...)

[veeco]

Originally posted by edew
There were decent fencers on that list of finishers: Medina, Steven and Dennis Bauer, Willy Kothny, James Williams, Ivan Lee, Aki Spencer-El, Michael Golia...

Yes, but there was also no Podzniakov, no Pillet, no Touya, no Nemcsik, no Ferjancsik, no Tarantino, no Charikov, no Covaliu, no Frossine...

All these people would have given more trouble to him than the people you mentionned above. Now SOME of them were in Moscow, which is why I said that his result in Moscow has more value to me than his result in Lodon.

Golia and Williams are not made of the same metal as the ones I mentionned above. Kothny has yet to prove that he can fence well with "THA" behind his back instead of "GER".

[Mo]

Just when I think you guys have the least bit of enlightenment it all goes down the drain.
Just so you know, fencing is a sport that included both men and women. The US Women fencers do better in the world cups than the men do.
Is there one mention of them in here?? HELL NO
They are only girls after all, by all means blow them off.