US sabre - what is happening?!?

[damianip]

Didn't Medina get a bronze at the WC at La Chaux-de-Fonds?

Didn't Kothny get a bronze at Olympic games in Sydney?

They may not be the best but they are certainly top drawer.

Paolo

[DHCJr]

Originally posted by Mo
Just when I think you guys have the least bit of enlightenment it all goes down the drain.
Just so you know, fencing is a sport that included both men and women. The US Women fencers do better in the world cups than the men do.
Is there one mention of them in here?? HELL NO
They are only girls after all, by all means blow them off.

I personally have not mentioned the ladies mostly because of the direction they have been going. Except for Sada Jacobson and to a much lesser extent her sister Emily, the women are losing ground. Let us start with the year 2000. Mariel Zagunis had four World Championship to her name, one being the Senior World Championship Team. Where is she now at the senior (Olympic) level? Yes, she does well at the junior level, but even there she is not as consistent as one who is ranked number one. There wasn’t much competition in 2000. But that championship woke up the world. In Europe, no one thought about Women’s Sabre, but now they do. France has three fencers in the top 8. Our women’s team went from defending champions to fifth place at the last Worlds and now are ranked 6th. As I said Sada is consistent, and sometimes her sister can shine, but I don’t see Mariel having the strength to fight through. She is too inconsistent. I hope I am wrong, but when the rest of the countries put more energy into Women’s Sabre, we will lose what we started with.

[Capt. Slo-mo]

Originally posted by DHCJr
I personally have not mentioned the ladies mostly because of the direction they have been going. Except for Sada Jacobson and to a much lesser extent her sister Emily, the women are losing ground.

OK, here's some women's results in senior"
JACOBSON, EMILY 1,260.000 Sr-A Orléans, FRA, 4/27/2002 (SF=2.000), 11th

JACOBSON, SADA 1,272.000 Sr-A Orléans, FRA, 4/27/2002 (SF=2.000), 10th

MUSTILLI, NICOLE 91.200 Sr-B London, GBR, 1/26/2002 (SF=0.076), Gold Medal


BECKER, CHRISTINE 1,656.000 Sr-A Foggia, ITA, 3/17/2002 (SF=2.000), 7th
758.400 Sr-A Peabody, 5/25/2002 (6/9/2002 (SF=2.000), 8th
1,121.940 Sr-A Havana, CUB, 6/23/2002 (SF=1.355), 7th
816.000 Senior Worlds, Lisbon, POR, 8/19/2002 (SF=2.000), 19th
1,079.190 Sr-A Moscow, RUS, 12/22/2002 (SF=1.713), 11th


GAILLARD, AMELIA 1,200.000 Sr-A Budapest, HUN, 3/2/2002 (SF=2.000), 16th
1,113.810 Sr-A Havana, CUB, 6/23/2002 (SF=1.355), 8th
678.348 Sr-A Moscow, RUS, 12/22/2002 (SF=1.713), 21st

JACOBSON, EMILY 1,668.000 Sr-A Budapest, HUN, 3/2/2002 (SF=2.000), 6th
828.000 Sr-A Foggia, ITA, 3/17/2002 (SF=2.000), 18th
2,014.500 Sr-A Peabody, 5/25/2002 (SF=1.975), Bronze Medal
320.000 Sr-A Tauberbischofsheim, GER, (SF=1.355), 17th
840.000 Senior Worlds, Lisbon, POR, 8/19/2002 (SF=2.000), 17th
1,428.642 Sr-A Moscow, RUS, 12/22/2002 (SF=1.713), 6th
JACOBSSON, SADA 1,668.000 Sr-A Foggia, ITA, 3/17/2002 (SF=2.000), 6th
2,180.400 Sr-A Peabody, 5/25/2002 (SF=1.975), Silver Medal
1,495.920 Sr-A Havana, CUB, 6/23/2002 (SF=1.355), Silver Medal
1,680.000 Senior Worlds, Lisbon, POR, 8/19/2002 (SF=2.000), 5th
1,891.152 Sr-A Moscow, RUS, 12/22/2002 (SF=1.713), Silver Medal

ZAGUNIS, MARIEL 296.000 Sr-A Budapest, HUN, 3/2/2002 (SF=2.000), 36th
816.000 Sr-A Foggia, ITA, 3/17/2002 (SF=2.000), 19th
1,635.300 Sr-A Peabody, 5/25/2002 (SF=1.975), 7th
853.650 Sr-A Havana, CUB, 6/23/2002 (SF=1.355), 11th
709.182 Sr-A Moscow, RUS, 12/22/2002 (SF=1.713), 18th


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Now, some JUNIOR World cup points for the women:
BARATTA, EMMA 1,020.000 Jr Frascati, ITA, 11/23/2002, Bronze Medal
828.000 Jr Budapest, HUN, 1/3/2003, 7th
624.000 Jr Göppingen, GER, 1/12/2003, 12th
GAILLARD, AMELIA 517.752 Jr Logroño, ESP, 2/3/2002 (SF=1.692), 14th
1,200.000 Sr-A Budapest, HUN, 3/2/2002 (SF=2.000), 16th
272.000 Sr-A Foggia, ITA, 3/17/2002
1,113.810 Sr-A Havana, CUB, 6/23/2002 (SF=1.355), 8th
822.000 Jr Frascati, ITA, 11/23/2002, 8th
678.348 Sr-A Moscow, RUS, 12/22/2002 (
1,020.000 Jr Göppingen, GER, 1/12/2003, Bronze Medal

JACOBSON, EMILY 543.132 Jr Logroño, ESP, 2/3/2002 (SF=1.692), 9th
1,668.000 Sr-A Budapest, HUN, 3/2/2002 (SF=2.000), 6th
828.000 Sr-A Foggia, ITA, 3/17/2002 (SF=2.000), 18th
584.688 Junior Worlds, Antalya, TUR, 4/4/2002 (SF=1.874), 12th
2,014.500 Sr-A Peabody, 5/25/2002 (SF=1.975), Bronze Medal
320.000 Sr-A Tauberbischofsheim, GER, (SF=1.355), 17th
840.000 Senior Worlds, Lisbon, POR, 8/19/2002 (SF=2.000), 17th
624.000 Jr Frascati, ITA, 11/23/2002, 12th
1,428.642 Sr-A Moscow, RUS, 12/22/2002 (SF=1.713), 6th
1,020.000 Jr Budapest, HUN, 1/3/2003, Bronze Medal
840.000 Jr Göppingen, GER, 1/12/2003, 5th

JACOBSON, SADA 1,668.000 Sr-A Foggia, ITA, 3/17/2002 (SF=2.000), 6th
955.740 Junior Worlds, Antalya, TUR, 4/4/2002 (SF=1.874), Bronze Medal
2,180.400 Sr-A Peabody, 5/25/2002 (SF=1.975), Silver Medal
828.000 Sr-A Tauberbischofsheim, GER, 6/9/2002 (SF=2.000), 18th
1,495.920 Sr-A Havana, CUB, 6/23/2002 (SF=1.355), Silver Medal
1,680.000 Senior Worlds, Lisbon, POR, 8/19/2002 (SF=2.000), 5th
1,891.152 Sr-A Moscow, RUS, 12/22/2002 (SF=1.713), Silver Medal
1,200.000 Jr Budapest, HUN, 1/3/2003, Gold Medal
420.000 Jr Göppingen, GER, 1/12/2003, 17th

PARKER, SARAH 862.920 Jr Logroño, ESP, 2/3/2002 (SF=1.692), Bronze Medal
390.000 Jr Frascati, ITA, 11/23/2002, 22nd
330.000 Jr Budapest, HUN, 1/3/2003, 32nd
354.000 Jr Göppingen, GER, 1/12/2003, 28th

THOMPSON, CAITLIN 340.092 Jr Logroño, ESP, 2/3/2002 (SF=1.692), 20th
372.000 Jr Frascati, ITA, 11/23/2002, 25th
372.000 Jr Budapest, HUN, 1/3/2003, 25th


ZAGUNIS, MARIEL 1,015.200 Jr Logroño, ESP, 2/3/2002 (SF=1.692), Gold Medal
1,200.000 Jr Dourdan, FRA, 2/24/2002 (SF=2.000), Gold Medal
296.000 Sr-A Budapest, HUN, 3/2/2002 ((SF=2.000), 19th
781.458 Junior Worlds, Antalya, TUR, 4/4/2002 (SF=1.874), 6th
1,635.300 Sr-A Peabody, 5/25/2002 (SF=1.975), 7th
304.000 Sr-A Tauberbischofsheim, GER, (SF=1.355), 11th
1,020.000 Jr Frascati, ITA, 11/23/2002, Bronze Medal
709.182 Sr-A Moscow, RUS, 12/22/2002 (SF=1.713), 18th
1,104.000 Jr Budapest, HUN, 1/3/2003, Silver Medal
1,104.000 Jr Göppingen, GER, 1/12/2003, Silver Medal


So, you can see that the women have been doing pretty well in the last year...especially in junior...remembering that Zagunis and the younger Jacobsen are newly 17.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

QUOTE]Originally posted by DHCJr
As I said Sada is consistent, and sometimes her sister can shine, but I don’t see Mariel having the strength to fight through. She is too inconsistent. I hope I am wrong, but when the rest of the countries put more energy into Women’s Sabre, we will lose what we started with. [/quote]
From the above stats, I would say Mariel has certainly started the year strong in junior. For Zagunis and the Jacobson dynasty, perhaps the biggest problem is fatigue. They have all been overseas a bunch in the last two years. Like one of the other posters noted, its a lot easier to hop on the train to go fence a world cup inside Europe than for us to fly from the west coast overseas repeatedly.
QUOTE]Originally posted by DHCJr
I hope I am wrong, but when the rest of the countries put more energy into Women’s Sabre, we will lose what we started with. [/quote]
Donald, what makes you think the Euros are putting "less" effort into women's sabre now?

[edew]

Originally posted by veeco
Yes, but there was also no Podzniakov, no Pillet, no Touya, no Nemcsik, no Ferjancsik, no Tarantino, no Charikov, no Covaliu, no Frossine...

All these people would have given more trouble to him than the people you mentionned above. Now SOME of them were in Moscow, which is why I said that his result in Moscow has more value to me than his result in Lodon.

Golia and Williams are not made of the same metal as the ones I mentionned above. Kothny has yet to prove that he can fence well with "THA" behind his back instead of "GER".

I was hoping that people can see the humor in my post... Perhaps I shoulda stuck a smilie there.

[edew]

Originally posted by Mo
Just when I think you guys have the least bit of enlightenment it all goes down the drain.
Just so you know, fencing is a sport that included both men and women. The US Women fencers do better in the world cups than the men do.
Is there one mention of them in here?? HELL NO
They are only girls after all, by all means blow them off.

Well, the starting post discussed Keeth Smart's win in London. Feel free to start a post about any of the US Women's sabre fencers' win in any senior world cup. I'll be happy to throw my worthless $0.02 into the discussion. (It's worthless because I seldom get to watch women's sabre, being that I'm usually refereeing some other event at the time, so I don't know how well the Jacobsons fence or how well Zagunis fences.)

[edew]

Originally posted by Jason
[...]
For the US, European fencing is a world away and, therefore, some big mystery that kills us psychologically.

While my following claim doesn't apply to all US sabre fencers, I can imagine that it could be quite intimidating for a guy who grows up on the streets of NY, in the mean streets among the homeys, and realizing that he's flying to some foreign country half-way around the world, fencing in some room that's older than the city he's born in.

I can see how that could be a bit intimidating for even a world class level fencer such as Akhi, three or four years ago (when the "Choice of Weapons" documentary was made).

That is why you're not going to see too many junior-level fencers at the very tippy top of the international scene. Even those from Europe gets the shakes and it make take eight to ten years to wear off the shakes.

Heck, I've been fencing for 22 years and I still get a lump in my throat when I start fencing at a NAC. I still stand there playing practice dummy for top fencers when I go to NACs. That's why people should fence more, just to wear off that feeling.

[veeco]

Originally posted by Mo

The US Women fencers do better in the world cups than the men do.

So far, this year, that's not the case. 2 world cups, and to top 2 finishes for the men. There has been only one world cup in Moscow this year for the women's and there was not even a full 64 fencers in it (from the FIE results page), so it's a little bit too early to say that the women are doing better than the men.

And I would argue that even if it was the case, such a statement would be completely useless, since they are not competing against each other and in different fields (God forbid me to actually make any comment regarding the actual relative strength of these fields), there is no reason to say that women are doing better than the men, or the opposite.

Originally posted by Mo

Is there one mention of them in here?? HELL NO
They are only girls after all, by all means blow them off.

Quoted from the first post of this thread, by Dalton (emphasis added):

This rises the question, what has changed so dramatically in the US sabre fencing? We are seeing the US fencers rise through the rankings in both men and women. Any reasons for this sudden rise in the level of sabre, while the other weapons seem not to have the same momentum?

What's the problem? I think there might be a little bit anger to that post that was not justified. The comparison that was done at this point was between sabre and other weapons, not between women's and men's sabre...

Since the first paragraph of his post specifically mentionned Keeth result in London, people chose to start the discussion on this.

If you would like to talk about the women's results, then by all means do, and tell us why you think that the women's sabre results are better than, say the women's epee results. You may even feel free to start a separate thread about it. But don't blow people off (in your own words) because they are talking about a man's results, rather than focusing their whole energy on the women's sabre results.

Keeth Smart deserves as much credit for his results than Sada Jacobson, Mariel Zagunis, or anybody else. And if he doesn't get credit, then all we will see is the general level of fencing decline in the US, because the US will not be able to be a strong fencing nation "in women's sabre only". I believe that if the US wants do good in fencing, it has to do so in all the weapons.

Sabre is leading the way, but the other weapons will do well to, unless people start discussing the relative strength of the women's program vs. the men's.

[fencer-person]

If you are in any way taking away from Keeth Smart's win than you obviously know nothing about fencing or the struggle American fencers have had to overcome all the naysayers. Keeth Smart has made top 4 in his last 5 world cups!

He has beaten most of the fencers you have mentioned. In Cuba last year he went through the entire French national team and in
London he beat Medina(Last years world cup winner), Kothny(Olympic bronze medalist) and many other excellent fencer. His feat was amazing, so stop trying to take away from it. Winning a world cup could not be done by too many people in the world and it would be unheard of even a year ago to think of a U.S. sabre fencer winning one.

When is someone's accomplishments going to be enough for you?

No other U.S. fencer have done what Keeth has done and there will be plenty more to come from Keeth, Akhi and the rest of the U.S. Sabre fencers. Let's celebrate his accomplishment not tear it down or belittle it by getting into arguments over who gets better results women's sabre or men's sabre. They both get results and that's awesome.

[Jason]

Originally posted by Mo
They are only girls after all, by all means blow them off.

Wait, don't you mean. . . .

[Dalton]

Interesting. It seems that I actually provoked so many angry posts by pointing out that US sabre is now a major force on the international scene. Guess this tells a lot about the attitude of US fencing in general. There seems to be even more in-fighting and jelousy there than in many of the major european countries.

Being an outsider, I would have never believed it.

[epeemike81]

Originally posted by Mo
Just when I think you guys have the least bit of enlightenment it all goes down the drain.
Just so you know, fencing is a sport that included both men and women. The US Women fencers do better in the world cups than the men do.
Is there one mention of them in here?? HELL NO
They are only girls after all, by all means blow them off.

Last time I checked, there was another thread dedicated entirely to the great results womens' sabre recently got. I can tell you that those results have been a VERY frequent topic of conversation among fencers I know. Also, you're right, the women do perform better. that is probably why people are more surprised about the men doing well.

Believe it or not, Mo, the fencing world is not a vast male chauvinist conspiracy.

-m

[epeemike81]

Originally posted by veeco
And I would argue that even if it was the case, such a statement would be completely useless, since they are not competing against each other and in different fields (God forbid me to actually make any comment regarding the actual relative strength of these fields), there is no reason to say that women are doing better than the men, or the opposite.

But when we talk about one weapon performing better than the others, which many often do, we mean flat placement. You THEN can account for X factors. example: my epee squad has done better than the UMass mens foil squad this year. after stating that, though, you have to note that our conferences have much harder competition in foil than epee. however, that does not change the statistic, just what you think of the statistic.

-m

[epeemike81]

Originally posted by Jason
Wait, don't you mean. . . .

wait, so first you don't care and now you treat them as sex objects??

I have a feeling this is going to draw a MAJOR overreaction.

-m

[JEC]

Interesting. It seems that I actually provoked so many angry posts by pointing out that US sabre is now a major force on the international scene. Guess this tells a lot about the attitude of US fencing in general. There seems to be even more in-fighting and jelousy there than in many of the major european countries.

Dalton,
I do not think this is jelousy, but a reflection that the American Culture glamorizes the art of discussion, where real facts are felt to be relative, and sometimes the discourse process means more than the conclusion.

[jspierre]

I see Keith, Akhi, Ivan and Herby as the core force in US saber now but where's the depth of talent? That's what worries me. We need guys with similar raw talent in the juniors that have the same attitude toward making the investment in the sport - time-wise, and sweat equity-wise. It would be quite crucial in my mind to get some corporate sponsorship at some level to fund the up and coming guys (girls) to sustain the gains US fencing has made in saber. And, by the way, same must be said for the coaches. As naturally talented and dedicated Keith and the others are to the sport, without Yuri Gelman, where would our guys be? Yuri's a master and he needs support too, arguably as much or more than the fencers since he can be leveraged in so many ways within the hours that he makes available at the club and college levels. In fact, in my view, someone like a Yuri Gelman should have board type status at the NYFC, a tenured type position to ensure that he stays and continues to develop the program and attracts talent, both fencers and other coaches.

You cannot take anything away from Keith. His fencing has hit a new level, and his confidence is soring. Thank g_d he's got someone like Coach Gelman to continuously provide insights at the next level, so Keith can meet the next set of challenges successfully.

[DHCJr]

[i]Donald, what makes you think the Euros are putting "less" effort into women's sabre now? [/b]

Not all countries have come on board. If you look at the statistics there are only about 2/3 of the men's, both in team and individual. Also in 2000, Mariel, who was then only just turned 15, did better in the Seniors, then she is doing now, older and wiser, at 17. I think the ladies are doing better than the men, BUT in 2000 they were doing great and doing much better than the men. If there is still fencing in the Olympics in 2008 and if the FIE keeps it's promise and rotate the Women's Foil and Sabre back into the Olympics, which of those two teams will have a better chance of getting a team medal? If Sada can keep up her fencing and get the rest to be more consistent, then they should have a shot. If the rest of the countries that have men's teams, but have not competed in Women’s Sabre, like Ukraine, Belarus and Spain, where will our ladies be? As I have said above, the ladies have done well, but as they have gotten older and as you said they are not old, the competition has gotten better faster.

The men may not be doing as well as the ladies, yet. But they are coming up and I for one am as proud of them as I am with the ladies.

[DHCJr]

Originally posted by jspierre
I see Keith, Akhi, Ivan and Herby as the core force in US saber now but where's the depth of talent? That's what worries me. We need guys with similar raw talent in the juniors that have the same attitude toward making the investment in the sport - time-wise, and sweat equity-wise. It would be quite crucial in my mind to get some corporate sponsorship at some level to fund the up and coming guys (girls) to sustain the gains US fencing has made in saber.

I think the men do not have to worry to much about the depth of talent coming up from the juniors, considering that almost half (4) of the top 9 places are from the USA. I would say that Jason, Luther, Michael and Patrick are going to give the 'Old Guys' a run for the money in a few years. There are 7 more in the top 42. I think the Junior Men are holding their own.

[Capt. Slo-mo]

Originally posted by epeemike81

Believe it or not, Mo, the fencing world is not a vast male chauvinist conspiracy.

Mike, either you're not married, or need to run that statement by the spousal unit so she can set you straight.

And, in a semi-connected matter, I heard that Zagunis won the Senior World Cup in Canada. OK, it's not the Lichtenstein Invitational, but a WC win is a WC win is a WC win.