Excessive Screaming

[Capt. Slo-mo]

Since the Psych! thread has degenerated into the equivalent of how many solipsistic angels of intentions can fit on the tip of an epee, let's veer away from discussing whether "mind games" in fencing are the result of generations of inbreeding--or just sheer brilliance--and talk about some of the real world problems they can cause.

Case in point: San Diego NACs, Junior Men's Epee, early DE. The match was between Teddy Sherril and Benjamin Bratton, both from Metro NYC.

As the first touches were registered, the two began an incredible vocal display, literally screaming incoherently at the top of their lungs. Not one of the
"hoopalopalawowwowowyes!yes!yes!" type victory yells that Inquarta despises, but long, drawn out, repeated primal screams at jet engine decibel ratings.

When Sherril would score, he would stop and scream, take a breath, and scream some more...3,4, 5 shrieks. Bratton would get the next touch, rip off his mask, and stalk around in circles, screaming and circling as if he was a large animal with one foot nailed to the floor. If it was a double...they BOTH would stop and shriek and shriek and shriek. People passing kidney stones in the middle of the Outback couldn't muster such volume.

Four strips away, a men's sabre Div1 second round pool had to stop dead after each epee point, because no one could hear the referee start the action.

At one point, Bratton scored a touch, stalked back to the very end of the strip (that's right...howling all the way), ripped off his mask...threw it to the floor, and stomped around the mask, screaming the entire time.

To me, this transcends any thought of playing a mind game with an opponent, and stumbles with both feet into disturbing the order of the strip. If you are fencing someone who is doing this, when is it appropriate to query the referee about reining in the behavior? If you are on an adjacent strip, is it ever appropriate to query your referee about intervening?

I know the simplistic response is that disturbing the order is a cardable offense, but we all know it is seldom if ever enforced. How can we encourage its enforcement?

[Catal]

It would take a ref who doesn't care if he pisses off a few people to enforce the rules. I think people will eventually get the hint when they start getting carded, and/or losing points. Bratton is a more complicated issue, in that his father also yells while off the strip, so his behaviour is being reinforced. I don't know if the father was there, but he does it all the time in New York, so there are deeper psychological issues at heart. I saw Bratton beating a guy who was down 9 points, and clearly would never have won, yet Bratton and his father would still scream after every touch.

Being pleased over your victories is one thing, but cheering in the face of someone who is little more than a bug by comparison is sadistic. It seems to me those two were just playing an ego game; that kind of thing happens when you're a teenager who can annhilate adult competition.

[epeemike81]

Originally posted by Capt. Slo-mo
Since the Psych! thread has degenerated into the equivalent of how many solipsistic angels of intentions can fit on the tip of an epee, let's veer away from discussing whether "mind games" in fencing are the result of generations of inbreeding--or just sheer brilliance--and talk about some of the real world problems they can cause.

Case in point: San Diego NACs, Junior Men's Epee, early DE. The match was between Teddy Sherril and Benjamin Bratton, both from Metro NYC.

As the first touches were registered, the two began an incredible vocal display, literally screaming incoherently at the top of their lungs. Not one of the
"hoopalopalawowwowowyes!yes!yes!" type victory yells that Inquarta despises, but long, drawn out, repeated primal screams at jet engine decibel ratings.

When Sherril would score, he would stop and scream, take a breath, and scream some more...3,4, 5 shrieks. Bratton would get the next touch, rip off his mask, and stalk around in circles, screaming and circling as if he was a large animal with one foot nailed to the floor. If it was a double...they BOTH would stop and shriek and shriek and shriek. People passing kidney stones in the middle of the Outback couldn't muster such volume.

Four strips away, a men's sabre Div1 second round pool had to stop dead after each epee point, because no one could hear the referee start the action.

At one point, Bratton scored a touch, stalked back to the very end of the strip (that's right...howling all the way), ripped off his mask...threw it to the floor, and stomped around the mask, screaming the entire time.

To me, this transcends any thought of playing a mind game with an opponent, and stumbles with both feet into disturbing the order of the strip. If you are fencing someone who is doing this, when is it appropriate to query the referee about reining in the behavior? If you are on an adjacent strip, is it ever appropriate to query your referee about intervening?

I know the simplistic response is that disturbing the order is a cardable offense, but we all know it is seldom if ever enforced. How can we encourage its enforcement?

If it was really as bad as you say, they DEFINITELY should have been carded. Feel free to ask your ref about it, who will probably talk to the other ref, who will start cautioning the fencers, and if it doesn't stop, carding them.

Also, the way you describe it, it ALL sounds like disturbing order, but much of it sounds like unsportsmanlike (spiking his mask).

What I can't understand is yelling after a double touch. Sure, I have done it occasionally, but it gets cut off in the middle as I realize I have been doubled up. Yelling should be reserved for GOOD single touches, or very exciting touches, like tieing it up after being down, etc.

-m

[epeemike81]

Originally posted by Catal
It would take a ref who doesn't care if he pisses off a few people to enforce the rules. I think people will eventually get the hint when they start getting carded, and/or losing points. Bratton is a more complicated issue, in that his father also yells while off the strip, so his behaviour is being reinforced. I don't know if the father was there, but he does it all the time in New York, so there are deeper psychological issues at heart. I saw Bratton beating a guy who was down 9 points, and clearly would never have won, yet Bratton and his father would still scream after every touch.

Being pleased over your victories is one thing, but cheering in the face of someone who is little more than a bug by comparison is sadistic. It seems to me those two were just playing an ego game; that kind of thing happens when you're a teenager who can annhilate adult competition.

Bratton must have changed, then. last time I saw him, he gave a curt little growl after touches, and not all of them at that.

-m

[Catal]

Yeah, I remember that, a couple years ago he wasn't so bad. He wasn't as good a fencer then either, now he just stomps all over people.

[CvilleFencer]

I have pondered this one myself on several occasions as in my division we have a couple of excessive screamers, almost all from one club, and they can be quite disruptive to the others fencing at the venue.

One of our particularly guilty beserkers likes to challenge every call, screams like a disemboweled cat when hit, or shouts obnoxiously when she scores. She also rips off her mask a couple of times a match, jumps up and down in anger, and will storm off the strip to talk with her coach/teammates to get advice. And that is just in pools.

What is truly sad is that her antics can drag out a match for upwards of ten to fifteen minutes. I try to get my friends or teammates to make more of a stink about her behavior but they all feel so embarrassed by her that they do not want to further make a scene or set her off worse and therefore let the situation continue.

Short of irritating your director by pestering him to hand out cards after every action what can one do? Such a fencer is not usually very open to comments or counseling, and I for one do not want to associate, compete, or even be in the same division with someone who is such an atrocious sport.

I guess in the end I have no real solutions other than to try to get the directors to do their job and keep the match somewhat respectable and orderly and encourage the opponents of such fencers to complain about their actions to the director or even the Division committee.

It has been my experience that most judges will only enforce the rules like disturbing order and so forth if their attention is called to it. If anyone has any great solutions I would love to hear him or her as I do think some of the behavior goes beyond psycological fencing or even emotionalism.

[The0ne]

Nothing. . .
just pester the ref alot!
Because i for one see a bunch of cards there.

-The0ne

[Purple Fencer]

A bunch? Hell, I see losing entire BOUTS that way. I weould CERTAINLY throw cards, and if she complained, my response would be "I don't care, now you can come on guard or you can get another red card."


Did anyone's ears get piereced by the SoCal Sabre Shrieker? (All you SoCal folks KNOW who I'm talking about)

[edew]

Is that Sarah or Mary? Did she even fence last weekend?

I think I heard it up here in the Bay Area.

On the whole, I think the women sabre fencers are the loudest screamers. Women epee fencers seem to be the most muted. Maybe it's because screaming is less effective among the women epeeists. Or something.

On the men's side, men's sabre fencers are generally the most vocal. Men's epeeists cover the whole spectrum, and the foilists have the wimpiest, least influential screams. Men's foilists all scream as if they're not even sure they deserved the touch. Or, they scream, then realize that they missed completely, and so their scream goes from, "HOO-HOOO-HOOO" to "ho-hum-umm-err...oops".

'Course, I throw out the best invectives.

[veeco]

Just a comment on screaming:

Sometimes I will scream on the first couple of touches, just to loosen up.

It might not be about intimidating the ref or the other fencer as much as trying to get myself more motivated and comfortable in the strip. Usually I do scream pretty loud, I guess... But it depends on the bout and who I am fencing too.

[CvilleFencer]

While I personally find full throat screaming during a bought to be a bit improper and nulkterney, I realize that it is simply an IMO type of thing and as I have made a few growls or exclamations during tough matches I can easily forgive it.

If you can shout just to blow off pressure or to reinforce you self esteem or one of the other reasons people say they do it fine. If you do it in the course of acting the fool or being unsportsmanlike (stomping, cursing, throwing helmets, storming off the strip) I feel that you should be carded or warned.

I know a couple of people who do the screaming thing and then are fine, friendly, and can win or lose graciously, and they should not be targeted. However load, abusive, petulant, or whinny fencers should not be tolerated by their teams, coaches, judges, or fellow competitors.

It seems that the only way to stop this kind of thing is to bring it to the attention of judges and others as it happens. Maybe the only real solution is to police our clubs, our divisions, and ourselves and try to show that it is not proper?

[Chris]

Originally posted by Capt. Slo-mo
Since the Psych! thread has degenerated into the equivalent of how many solipsistic angels of intentions can fit on the tip of an epee, let's veer away from discussing whether "mind games" in fencing are the result of generations of inbreeding--or just sheer brilliance--and talk about some of the real world problems they can cause.

Case in point: San Diego NACs, Junior Men's Epee, early DE. The match was between Teddy Sherril and Benjamin Bratton, both from Metro NYC.
(snip)

When Sherril would score, he would stop and scream, take a breath, and scream some more...3,4, 5 shrieks. Bratton would get the next touch, rip off his mask, and stalk around in circles, screaming and circling as if he was a large animal with one foot nailed to the floor. If it was a double...they BOTH would stop and shriek and shriek and shriek. People passing kidney stones in the middle of the Outback couldn't muster such volume.

Four strips away, a men's sabre Div1 second round pool had to stop dead after each epee point, because no one could hear the referee start the action.

At one point, Bratton scored a touch, stalked back to the very end of the strip (that's right...howling all the way), ripped off his mask...threw it to the floor, and stomped around the mask, screaming the entire time.

To me, this transcends any thought of playing a mind game with an opponent, and stumbles with both feet into disturbing the order of the strip. If you are fencing someone who is doing this, when is it appropriate to query the referee about reining in the behavior? If you are on an adjacent strip, is it ever appropriate to query your referee about intervening?

I know the simplistic response is that disturbing the order is a cardable offense, but we all know it is seldom if ever enforced. How can we encourage its enforcement?

Staying on point: while I feel some transient, momentary expression should be allowed, (within bounds of civility) it must NOT interfere with , or delay the conduct the conduct of the bout at hand, let alone activity on any other strip.

If someone wants to do a Mexican Hat-dance, they need a special little passport (AKA Black Card).

[Catal]

It seems that the only way to stop this kind of thing is to bring it to the attention of judges and others as it happens.

I think the best thing to do is kick those people in the head.

[CvilleFencer]

Originally posted by Catal
It seems that the only way to stop this kind of thing is to bring it to the attention of judges and others as it happens.

I think the best thing to do is kick those people in the head.

I have in the past tried the kicking in the head, boot to the head, and bellguard to the face approach in the past and much to my surprise it only delays even more annoying displays of hysteria later on(after the offenders regain consciousness), but then I am the one that gets carded for having a perfectly reasonable reaction! Where is the justice in that!

Brutality they say. Hah! If they do not conform to standards of sportsmanship why should I! I call it a level playing field! Now brutality is when I convince a newbie to warm up dry with me and I use my Schlager!

[Zelda]

Eric I beg to disagree about women foilists, I know some who can fracture an ear drum....what ironic though is the person in question cant stand whistling.....yet she squeals like a banshee

[Capt. Slo-mo]

Originally posted by Purple Fencer
Did anyone's ears get piereced by the SoCal Sabre Shrieker? (All you SoCal folks KNOW who I'm talking about)

I don't think she had a good enough tournament to get into full voice form. Lack of touches can equate to lack of screaming, sometimes.

[Purple Fencer]

Originally posted by edew
Is that Sarah or Mary? Did she even fence last weekend?

I think I heard it up here in the Bay Area.

Oh, it would DEFINITELY be Mary! That girl calls dogs for miles!

On the whole, I think the women sabre fencers are the loudest screamers. Women epee fencers seem to be the most muted. Maybe it's because screaming is less effective among the women epeeists. Or something.

On the men's side, men's sabre fencers are generally the most vocal. Men's epeeists cover the whole spectrum, and the foilists have the wimpiest, least influential screams. Men's foilists all scream as if they're not even sure they deserved the touch. Or, they scream, then realize that they missed completely, and so their scream goes from, "HOO-HOOO-HOOO" to "ho-hum-umm-err...oops".

Or as I did at Nats in Sacramento..."HupAAAAAaaoooooshoot!"

'Course, I throw out the best invectives.

But no one knows what you're yelling!

Which is, of course part of the fun of watching you miss!

Note to others that Eric's NEVER had to let one loose against me...particularly since I don't even seem to wake him up! I suck.

[drayke]

How about:
"Sir (Ma'am) Please warn the fencer regarding _____."
or "Please ask the fencer to ____."Example: "Please ask the fencer to not remove the mask prior to your directive to Halt."
Said in a calm, level tone which indicates you are not in the least put off by the antics displayed.
Also, it requires a response from the official.
Continued displays of such behavior countered with your calm request to the official is a psychological counter attack to whatever they think their display will accomplish.

[Dee EffEll]

I try to be careful about how I am viewed as a fencer, mostly because I want people to feel free to come talk to me about my sport, my performance, my training or anything. I like to be asked to fence, especially by particularly good, high rated fencers. Ergo, I pay attention to the amount of noise I make on the strip, merely in my own self-interest. I need all the help I can get! Who wants to go approach an obvious head case with "pointers?"

I talk to myself, and try to give my opponent a good game. I fence to the last point, as hard as I can. When I make a big mistake, and hit somone overly hard, or in a particularly awkward way, I apologise. But one thing I have been rather unsuccessful in doing is totally controlling how much noise I make. Infrequently, I scold myself, but try to keep it sotto voce. For the life of me, when I lunge long and hard, or particularly get off an exploseive fleche', I grunt with a hard "PAH!" (OK, so you can now ID me at the next veteran NAC.) It really is quite involuntary. Trust me, I have tried to change the syllable, as my coach has warned that from accross the room, it sounds like, well, a word used to describe fornication. I had no idea until he brought it to my attention after being asked about it by one of the kids' parents! Had I known, I would have personally gone over and apologised. But my coach also warned me that one of these days, I may in fact run into a fairly unforgiving director that will give me a card for it. It has occurred to me that maybe the occasional short "if you hear me grunt 'PAH!' today, it really isn't an obscenity" speech while he is checking my epee might cover my behind, but this seems....impish. So I take my chances rather than try to excuse myself beforehand.

Honest - these 40+ year old legs and joints are hardwired to the rest of the system. I'd change if I could, but...

First post. Fun web site.

[edew]

Originally posted by Zelda
Eric I beg to disagree about women foilists, I know some who can fracture an ear drum....what ironic though is the person in question cant stand whistling.....yet she squeals like a banshee

Did I mention women foilists, one way or another? Gosh no. Some do scream, and some don't. And my point of reference comes only from the US fencers, as I don't have much experience with Australian or other countries' fencers.