Fencing and Brain Damage?

[holidayofthinking]

This is something I'm curious about, as I hardly ever see it discussed. (I tried searching the forums, but couldn't come up with much.)

I don't know a great deal about this sport -- in fact I know hardly anything about it, and I realise that this shows -- so I thought I'd try posting here, to see what experienced people have to say about the matter. What is the level of potential danger in fencing for brain damage? I've heard people say that they've witnessed concussions in the sport before ( concussion discussion ) but the majority of these incidents seem to be linked to the 'bell guard', and I'm assuming getting hit with that is rare. (Or is it?)

I know there have been worries over football, rugby, hockey players, etc. Boxing is also a major problem, but that one is obvious, as they take horrific shots to the head on a regular basis. I've read about people who practice Kendo being worried about concussion and headaches that they suffer, and the prospect of long term brain damage over time.

What is the risk in fencing? Does it depend on what type of style you practice, in regard to epee, foil and saber? I've tried a little foil, and while head hits are rare, I do find that they can happen when people are lunging off target and accidentally hitting masks. Are fencing hits even powerful enough to cause long term damage, if one is repeatedly hit to the head over the span of several matches, or is this not possible? Is the style of the sport (the type of masks, the type of blows, etc) such that hits to the front of the mask won't damage the brain? (I notice that when someone does accidentally hit the mask, the point sort of slides off it -- but the original hit would still have probably jerked someone's head back.)

Just curious about all this, and I was hoping people knew more about this topic.

[D'Art]

I think the closest most fencers will get to that is liver damage

[erooMynohtnA]

I think the closest most fencers will get to that is liver damage

I don't know about that. Anecdotally speaking, the forums are chock full of evidence of brain damage.

[D'Art]

I don't think much of that is down to the fencing though.

[swordsen]

I have seen one person get a concussion while fencing. It happened when a 120 pound woman fleched into (literally in this case) an advancing 230 pound man. The women went flying backwards and landed on her head.

[Allen Evans]

I don't think you have to be concerned about concussion injuries in fencing.

A

[tbryan]

What is the level of potential danger in fencing for brain damage?

Practicing an exclusively asymmetric activity, spending our weekends in sunless venues with beeping boxes, dressing up in funny white outfits...I see what you mean. It could indicate a high degree of brain damage.

Unless someone has actually done a study on this topic, you won't get any definitive answers. Being a minority sport, I doubt that there is such a study for fencing. I am not a doctor or sports scientist. I don't think that any of us will be able to give you anything other than anecdotal evidence.

Have you seen or experienced something that caused you to ask this question?

I know there have been worries over football, rugby, hockey players, etc. Boxing is also a major problem

These are all sports where hits to the head are (or at least were) a regular part of the game. I believe the cause of concern is the sudden acceleration/deceleration of the head. In particular, I thought that the concern with football was more about repeated hits to the head that didn't cause an actual concussion.

In all physical activities, there is going to be a risk of injury. For example, I'm sure that divers get concussions from time to time (if they hit their head on the board), but it's not like that's happening to multiple participants at every meet. In boxing, at every fight, every participant sustains multiple hits to the head. Again, it's not like every hit in boxing causes a concussion, but I think that the concern has recently focused on cumulative damage from less severe head impacts.

In fencing, someone may get hit with the bell guard or knock their head when falling down, but neither one is a frequent occurrence or a part of regular play. The only risks for a head injury in fencing are

• corps-a-corps/jostling, especially if one of the fencers falls over and hits the back of the head
• hit to the mask with a bell guard
• straight stop hit to the mask
• saber cut to the mask

Ask the saber fencers, but I've heard more concern about their hearing than about brain injuries from receiving head cuts. (Actually, that concern was from a saber coach who probably takes hundreds of mask hits per week.) A straight stop hit to the mask may snap your head back if you were in the middle of a lunge: I've experienced that exactly once in over 10 years of fencing. If you're fencing at a sane distance with not terrible fencers, it rarely happens. As you said, the mask is shaped to deflect the point. Normally, even a mask hit that turns on the light will glance off the mask.

Falling, corps-a-corps, and bell guard hits could really result in a head/brain injury. Contact that's likely to cause brain injury is normally going to be at least a group I penalty for at least one of the fencers. Again, it happens, and it will continue to happen, but it doesn't happen very often to any particular fencer, so I would be surprised if there were any serious problem in fencing with cumulative brain damage over time. If you are unfortunate enough to receive an severe head injury in such an incident, seek professional medical help.

I've read about people who practice Kendo being worried about concussion and headaches that they suffer

I believe that a shinai and bokken are both much stiffer than a fencing blade. They're also used much differently. You'd have to get someone to measure it, but I imagine that the shinai applies more force to their helmet than a saber does to the mask when making a proper head cut.

Personally, I've never been worried. But maybe that's just the brain damage talking.

[Allen Evans]

In fact, in the last paper I read on fencing injuries, the vast majority of the injuries were to the lower extremeness and were relatively minor (strains and sprains). I don't have the paper handy (by Dr. Peter Harmer) but if I recall, concussions did not even make the injury list -- this in a sport that already has a very low injury rate.

As tbryan says, fencing is not anything like kendo, in which the equipment is more likely to transmit more of the force of a blow to the opponent.

A

[Purple Fencer]

I saw Brendan Richard get whiplash year ago, but it was a freak accident. He was fencing a little kid, last touch in the last pool bout, Brendan advances and the kid lunges hard and pointing slightly up. Point catches Brendan's mask dead center at the chin and ROCKS his head back (thus the whiplash).

[Fedor]

I saw Brendan Richard get whiplash year ago, but it was a freak accident. He was fencing a little kid, last touch in the last pool bout, Brendan advances and the kid lunges hard and pointing slightly up. Point catches Brendan's mask dead center at the chin and ROCKS his head back (thus the whiplash).

The answer to that is "counterattack is parried, riposte: touche."

[Greybeard]

Having a delicate brain and aneurysms waiting to pop. I have been stunned by shots to the head in épée. (my fault, I lean into it) There can't be too much concern, or my neurologists wouldn't let me fence. I agree with the others that whiplash might occur, you could fall and hit your head. But as I said, I have stented and clipped aneurysms that continue to grow and I thought there might be a concern from the elevated BP and adrenaline level affecting an already weakened vessel. Thus causing a subarachnoid hemorrhage and the vessel to blow or leak causing a stroke or worse. I know my Doctors are not keen on me taking shots to the head, but barring a blade piercing a mask or an actual blow to the head in the exposed area (back of mask) I can't say I see much danger. However, continuous shots may build up trauma after a while.

Heck, when I get hit it does stun me for a few minutes, and it must have done some damage, because I continue to fence épée. Of course this is a non-medical opinion. However, if you do get hurt from someone, I am a lawyer.

[Empty Wallet]

I saw Brendan Richard get whiplash year ago, but it was a freak accident. He was fencing a little kid, last touch in the last pool bout, Brendan advances and the kid lunges hard and pointing slightly up. Point catches Brendan's mask dead center at the chin and ROCKS his head back (thus the whiplash).

I have been concussed twice fencing. The first time was a fall backwards that had my head bounce on the strip -- clever metal spring assorbing quite a bit of the impact. It was a veterans training squad, with one member a doc who made me sit out several weeks.

The was similar to the quote, with a straight hard hit into the mask, and the blade did not bend at all. Epeeist hit me, and we were fencing foil in an open DE. As far as I know, no medical support was present. I withdrew after a few more points (most of which I won). I have been told it looked like I hit a brick wall, with head flipping backwards and upwards.

Not realising the concussion (but feeling the whiplash) I fenced the veterans the next day. Again, no medicos present -- but concern expressed by fellow competitors. Oddly, I did not fence well in the veterans.
At work the following week, my secretary kept feeding me medication and saying I was looking like s***.

The whiplash injury kept me out for some months.

[Morale Officer]

I don't think you have to be concerned about concussion injuries in fencing.

A

It's more possible/common than you think, but I agree, definitely not on the top of the list of injuries. I had a kid flunge me and overshot (he was like 6'6 or 6'7 - I'm 5'8)...he cracked me in the back of the head resulting in a concussion.

[Inquartata]

The answer to that is "counterattack is parried, riposte: touche."

I guess that's what puts the 'ouch' in 'touche'.