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carlos · 01-17-2003, 07:59 AM

Why did the FIE rule that grips with pommels may not have prongs to fix the fingers in place (that is, no counterweighted ortho grips)?

DHCJr · 01-17-2003, 12:18 PM

It is not because they have a French Pommel. The only ones that have been named as illegal, so far all use French Pommels. The reason is rule M4.6 which states that the hand must be fixed in one position only and with the extremity of the thumb within 2cm of the inside of the guard. Those with a French Pommel allows the fencer to move their hand farther back, thus giving them longer reach, while still having the same control of the weapon. This also means that the same handle may be legal for one person and not another. A large handle may fit someone so that the thumb is within 2cm, but not for someone with smaller hands.

carlos · 01-17-2003, 12:40 PM

I understand, but why was the rule instituted?

It would seem that a grip like a Belgian, but with a slightly longer handle and more weight at the very end, like a French pommel, would provide a good combination of balance (with the thumb and forefinger acting as the fulcrum) and contact area of hand and grip for point control. Yet this is forbidden by the rule.

The Spanish grip that is not permitted is an example of such a grip, although not ideal.

DHCJr · 01-17-2003, 01:59 PM

For the simple fact you could do the exact same thing holding the handle further back. The Gardier is a better example of how you can hold the handle at many different lengths from the guard with the same control and motion.

There is a posible solution. I don't know if anyone sells these anymore, but there used to be a pistol grip pommel that was extra heavy. It was used to counterbalance the light plastic handles. Does anyone out there know if anyone sells these anymore. The ones I have take a 1/4" Allen wrench.

carlos · 01-18-2003, 09:17 AM

Is the Gardere grip legal?

oiuyt · 01-18-2003, 05:50 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by carlos
Is the Gardere grip legal?

The statement "The Gardier is a better example of how you can hold the handle at many different lengths from the guard with the same control and motion." Should answer your question for you. If a grip can be held at multiple different distances and is orthapedic it's illegal.

-B :)

carlos · 01-18-2003, 09:48 PM

OK, so why does the rule exist?

Purple Fencer · 01-19-2003, 03:34 PM

Because if you post with a French grip, you're basically trading power/control for distance. With an illegal grip lie a Gardere, you get the advantage of a longer reach AND still havr the same power/control of the weapon.

carlos · 01-20-2003, 11:50 AM

I think I understand the sense of the rule and its implications now, but why?

If there were a grip that allowed shifting hand position, aids to the fingers, and a counterweight, and if everyone liked it, why ban it? I don't understand how it would make a bout less fair, or difficult to judge.

DHCJr · 01-20-2003, 12:53 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by carlos
I think I understand the sense of the rule and its implications now, but why?

If there were a grip that allowed shifting hand position, aids to the fingers, and a counterweight, and if everyone liked it, why ban it? I don't understand how it would make a bout less fair, or difficult to judge.

Let us try taking it to the extreme so maybe you will understand it. Suppose there was no limit. How would you feel if you could be scored against while standing at the on-guard line and your opponent stood on their on guard line because they had a weapon long enough to hit you from that distance? I don’t think you would like it. Suppose someone had a weapon 6” longer than yours would you like that? That is what you are saying if we did not have that rule. What the rule is for is to give a level playing field. You win or lose based on your ability. Now you are allowed to “Extend” the length of your weapon with a French grip, giving you an advantage. But you also get a disadvantage in that you cannot control the weapon as easily. Next to safety, most rules are done, so your opponent does not have an unfair advantage over you.

Would everyone like it? Suppose you like the Belgium grip, which doesn’t give you that advantage and someone uses the Gardere against you, with the extra length, would you like it?

carlos · 01-20-2003, 06:06 PM

Sure, an upper limit on grip length makes sense. So does the prohibition on anything that could make the foil a throwing weapon, such as disallowing a long wrist strap with an Italian grip that could allow another kind of indefinite "extension" to the weapon.

But why would it be necessary to rule out a handle that has a fixed hand position (like say a German grip) and also a counterweight?

As long as the fixed hand position and size restriction rules were followed, if counterweighted pistol grips really did give better performance, several manufacturers would make them, they would become standard and popular, and there would not be a question of "unfair advantage" anymore than there is between a Belgian and a Russian.

DHCJr · 01-20-2003, 06:28 PM

You do not seem to understand. I do not like nor am I comfortable using the Spanish or the Gardere. Because of the size of my hand, I mostly use Russian or a large Belgium. I would feel my opponent had an unfair advantage, if they had a weapon 6” longer than me. If they had a French and tried posting, I would just beat harder. That would not work with an orthopedic grip. I do not believe I should be forced to change the type of handle I use, just because you want an unfair advantage and I would be forced to do that, because if I didn’t you would have an extra 6” of reach. I call that an unfair advantage. My hands may be big, but that does not mean I have long arms.

As I said before, you can have a counterweight. One way is the extra heavy pommel that goes into the Belgium etc that I mentioned before. Another way is to make a handle that the back half is made of lead. Another way is to design a handle that would meet the requirements and use a French pommel. A possible one would basically be a French with two prongs. The upper would be placed the length of your thumb from the front and the bottom would be placed so that you could only place one finger around it that would place your thumb within 2cm of the inside of the guard. You would have your counterweight and you would be forced to hold the weapon in one position only. The Spanish is designed for two fingers, so you can move your hand back and hold with one finger and still have the control. That is why it gives an unfair advantage.

carlos · 01-25-2003, 08:27 PM

Thanks for the explanations. I am curious about the weighted pistol grips that you mentioned.

("..there used to be a pistol grip pommel that was extra heavy. It was used to counterbalance the light plastic handles. Does anyone out there know if anyone sells these anymore. ")

Did you find out anything more about these?

Artisan · 01-26-2003, 01:11 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by carlos
Thanks for the explanations. I am curious about the weighted pistol grips that you mentioned.

("..there used to be a pistol grip pommel that was extra heavy. It was used to counterbalance the light plastic handles. Does anyone out there know if anyone sells these anymore. ")

Did you find out anything more about these?

I'd be very interested in such a grip, and have wondered why they don't seem to exist. If you pick up a dry epee, with a french grip, the balance is excellent, just in front of the bell guard. Point control is improved, since you are moving the entire weapon from a point much closer to it center of mass. Now try it with a pistol grip. The loss of the weight of the pommel shifts the balance forward by 3/4" to an inch. Now add the weight of an electric tip - which while only being a few grams, when at a distance of 36" provides a significant lever-arm. Now the balance is 3-4 inches forward of the guard.

I've only recently found a grip that I liked, which with the right amount of material removed in key places is very comfortable. Perhaps now I 'll experiment with improving balance with some form of pommel nut - extension weight. It would seem too that the inner rim of the bell guard on a epee woul be an ideal place for some "weight balancing" reinforcement. As long as the entire weapon is <750g and passes thru the test cylinder...right?

...I'm off to get the scale and some hardware...

DHCJr · 01-27-2003, 04:39 PM

I am not 100% on this, but the ones I have came from Leon Paul, but that was over 20 years ago. I did check their Online catalog and they do still list a large pommel for their 150 Belgium plastic handle. They do not show a picture, so you might want to contact them first before ordering. If there is someone in London who can check at the shop itself and can report back.

One warning. These have a much larger diameter than other pommels, so to fix most handles you will need to drill your handle out!

02-07-2003, 09:26 AM

A french handle a pommel can be used of any size and weight as long as the wepon fits in the gauge and does not produce a significant change in surface height from the handle. Once protrusions are added the handle becomes a crosse grip and the thumb must be within 20 mm of the guard/pad.

Leon paul have had a plastic gardere grip ref 151 which replaces the standard french grip but uses the standard pommel for 30 years. At the same time we produced a crosse grip ref 150 made from plastic and supplied with a large nut to improve the balance ref 92. Pictures description on leonpaul.com web site regards Barry

carlos · 02-07-2003, 10:02 AM

Thank you! I will check into your #150 and #92.

I am in the U.S. Can I order directly from you or from a US supplier (although I haven't seen those products in the catalogs of most east coast suppliers like Santelli, BG, Blade, TCA, etc.)?

Barry Paul · 03-29-2005, 10:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DHCJr

For the simple fact you could do the exact same thing holding the handle further back. The Gardier is a better example of how you can hold the handle at many different lengths from the guard with the same control and motion.

There is a posible solution. I don't know if anyone sells these anymore, but there used to be a pistol grip pommel that was extra heavy. It was used to counterbalance the light plastic handles. Does anyone out there know if anyone sells these anymore. The ones I have take a 1/4" Allen wrench.

BETTER LATE THAN NEVER YES THE POMMEL NUT IS THE STANDARD LEON PAUL NUT FOR OUR 151 PLASTIC GRIP. THE NUT REFERENCE IS REFERENCE 92.

esskreemr · 03-29-2005, 10:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by carlos

I think I understand the sense of the rule and its implications now, but why?

If there were a grip that allowed shifting hand position, aids to the fingers, and a counterweight, and if everyone liked it, why ban it? I don't understand how it would make a bout less fair, or difficult to judge.

Perhaps was instituted to ensure that the French grip did not die a quick death.

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