Post-Pool Seeding

[Fencer180]

If two fencers are tied after the pools (ie. both have 6 V, same Indicator) then wouldn't it make sense for the fencer with the higher pre-seed to be seeded ahead of the other?

[leftweet]

No, because each pre-event seedings may not be entirely accurate, which is one of the reasons there is a round of pools (to make a more accurate seeding for DE's).

[Lefty Belgian]

If two fencers are tied after the pools (ie. both have 6 V, same Indicator) then wouldn't it make sense for the fencer with the higher pre-seed to be seeded ahead of the other?

Considering that there are already 3 levels of head-to-head statistics intended to break such a tie, I would be curious to know what percentage of the time there is a dead heat after all current tie-breaking methods are exhausted.

[Fencer180]

Considering that there are already 3 levels of head-to-head statistics intended to break such a tie, I would be curious to know what percentage of the time there is a dead heat after all current tie-breaking methods are exhausted.

For the DE bracket seeding? Or just a "pool tie."

[Lefty Belgian]

For the DE bracket seeding? Or just a "pool tie."

If 2 fencers are tied - same winning percentage - a tie is broken first by the number of wins, then by the indicator, and finally by the number of touches.

[leftweet]

Considering that there are already 3 levels of head-to-head statistics intended to break such a tie, I would be curious to know what percentage of the time there is a dead heat after all current tie-breaking methods are exhausted.

Looking at A4 results in the past year on askFred, out of 894 fencers who competed in A4 tournaments in the past year, there was roughly 74 instances where 2 or more fencers were tied. This means it occurs roughly 8%-10% of the time.

[Superscribe]

If 2 fencers are tied - same winning percentage - a tie is broken first by the number of wins, then by the indicator, and finally by the number of touches.

number of touches delivered, then number of touches recieved... amirite?

[Goldgar]

number of touches delivered, then number of touches recieved... amirite?

If they're tied on indicators, you go to touches scored. Note that if indicators and touches scored are both tied, then touches received *must* be tied.

[Superscribe]

ahh, yes yes of course.

[purplejackelope]

Having been in this situation a few times, where getting the other person's DE might have meant advancing another round, it would be comforting to know I wasn't in that situation purely because of chance. Besides, its a better indicator of who should be where than a coin flip.

[tbryan]

If two fencers are tied after the pools (ie. both have 6 V, same Indicator) then wouldn't it make sense for the fencer with the higher pre-seed to be seeded ahead of the other?

Assuming that all of the other tie-breaking mechanisms are equal, I guess so.

On the other hand, it's not something that I feel strongly enough about to want the rules changed. If we're that tied after pools, a coin toss is fine with me. Once I'm seeding around the right portion of the DE table, one position higher or lower in the table doesn't normally matter that much except for determining exactly who my opponents will be. My opponents should be roughly the same strength at each round no matter which position in the DE table I take. It's possible that either of the two seedings is actually the easier path through DEs, depending on how everyone else finished.

So, yeah, it makes some sense, but I wouldn't worry about it. Just focus instead on getting one more victory or fewer touches received next time.

[Bonehead]

Same V indicator, Same point indicator, same touches scored, then coin toss.

You already get your benefit by being put into a good poule (probably) if you have a good seed. If everything is tied, there are so many things that could have happened anyway to break the tie that have little or nothing to do with actual fencing, ref could have blinked at the wrong time, tip could have not registered, grip of your shoe could have slipped just a little.

If your exactly tied, you might as well have a coin toss. If you don't like it; score more touches.

[IanSerotkin]

Let's do not what ATA Taekwondo does for seeding: If there are byes because of an incomplete bracket, the most recent World Champions get them. If there are no World Champions, the most recent State Champions*. Everyone else gets seeded by placing their entry forms on the mat face down and then picking them up in random order**.

*Determining who is a World or State Champion is determined, per the rulebook, by visual inspection of the back of the competitor's uniform. So, if you won the World Championship last year but you didn't pay hundreds of dollars to have your uniform re-stitched, you don't get a bye.

**Not only is this how seeding is really done at all tournaments, the "pick the forms up off the ground" method is explicitly spelled out in the judging manual as the proper procedure.

[DHCJr]

If 2 fencers are tied - same winning percentage - a tie is broken first by the number of wins, then by the indicator, and finally by the number of touches.

number of touches delivered, then number of touches recieved... amirite?

Actually neither of you is correct. The number of wins and the number of touches received are never considered.

It is Victories/Bouts first, Hits Scored - Hits Received second and Hits Received last (o.19)

[dberke]

Actually neither of you is correct. The number of wins and the number of touches received are never considered.

It is Victories/Bouts first, Hits Scored - Hits Received second and Hits Received last (o.19)

I think you mistyped above, so to be clear, the sort order is:
V/M (V = victories, M = matches fenced)
TS - TR (aka Indicator, touches scored minus touches received)
TS (touches scored)

If all three are equal, then the competitors are considered tied (and listed as such in the seeding) and they are randomized for their position in the tableau.

Dan

[DHCJr]

I think you mistyped above, so to be clear, the sort order is:
V/M (V = victories, M = matches fenced)
TS - TR (aka Indicator, touches scored minus touches received)
TS (touches scored)

If all three are equal, then the competitors are considered tied (and listed as such in the seeding) and they are randomized for their position in the tableau.

Dan

Thank you I did mistype. That was a good catch.