Making a Coach

[Allen Evans]

Before I go any further, I want to reference back to a blog post I made a couple of years ago:

http://www.fencing.net/forums/blogs/...ing-coach.html

Which I think is still applicable now.

...longish post.

Just to make myself clear, I said that the OP should try to attain the highest level of fencing skill or coaching education possible for them. I certainly don't believe that you have to have been an elite fencer to be a good coach, but I DO believe that in coaching a skill based sport, you should have as much of the "skill" part of the sport as you can. Sometimes the only way to develop coaching skills is to train yourself as a fencer and reverse engeinner the process -- especially if you are in a country that has a very poor coaching education infastructure, such as the US. The more education you can have as a fencer -- in the absence of access to coaching development -- the more material you have to work with in developing your coaching skills*.

I feel that this is especially important considering how thin on the ground fencing coaches are (at least here in the US, which has been my only experiance). If the OP becomes a coach, there is a good chance that unless they are in a very populated city, they might be the only source of fencing instruction in their local area. Having as strong a skill set as possible (as both someone who understands fencing and who can perform the sport in a competant way) is going to be enormously important.

While I certainly understand your analogy vis a vis soccer coaching, I am not sure it's completely accurate, mostly in light of the fact that even in US soccer (a poor step-child among US team sports), there is a more developed infastructure of coaches than there is (and may ever be) in fencing. In the US, children may stay with their original coach for some time -- well into their early teens -- in the absence of any alternative. Again, I'm speaking a US centric point of view here. Canada may be much different, and a school program is going to be different than an established club.

Is there a role for the "weekend soccer coach" in fencing? I think most certainly, considering the few coaches we have. I feel, however, that "...I'm just teaching beginners..." is a miserable excuse for not always trying to expand a coaches knowlege and not striving for excellance in coaching in every facet of the game. I'm certainly NOT pointing fingers at YOU, Fencerglr, but I hear this a lot from people who have no business coaching fencing at all and it is a particular peeve of MINE. Irregular coaching in the US has ruined a lot of fencers. It's understandable that this occurs -- given our situation as an obscure sport -- but as coaches, "just teaching beginners" should never be an excuse for not expanding our skills sets or knowlege.

Finally, I might also argue against your statement that "top teir" coaches can't or shouldn't coach 9 year olds. I've met some very skilled coaches who are great with little kids and with beginners. That's more a function of the coach's personality then anything else. Certainly the Peter Westbrook Foundation is a good example of what's possible when young beginners are exposed to high level coaching from the start: PWF has a history of producing excellant results.

Again, no one reading this should take this personally. But I feel that if you are going to coach, the more education you can get as a fencer before you start to coach, the better.

A

*Note that this is NOT THE PERFERRED way to become a coach, in my opinion.

[Bonehead]

...

I dunno. I think it's okay to be a beginner coach, and to use that as a reason to not develop. Some people don't want to be hard-core fencers, and just want to do it recreationally. I think there is a space for this, under one HUGE caveat. If you get a student that wants to be more than just a rec fencer, then you have an obligation to send them to someone else.

[Allen Evans]

I'm not a "hard core fencer", but my students are spending money to learn fencing from me, and I feel that this means that I have to develop my skills to the best of my ability, even if I'm not always the recipient of those funds.

I'd love to think that all coaches sit down with their students when that student takes their first class and assess their future needs as fencers before they take them on as students. Or perhaps clubs have signs on the front door that say: "Welcome to XYZ Fencing Club, where we can teach you to be a low level fencer, and no more", but that just doesn't happen. The beginner doesn't know what they ultimately want out of fencing when they start, and often, neither do you*. Often by the time the coach and the student figure out that fencing is a big deal to the student, it's been two or three years of training. The student is past the "plastic" stage of learing fencing, and may have a lot of weird information to unlearn if they go on to a new coach.

I know this from personal experiance as a fencer, and as a coach, believe me.

On the bigger stage, I think that even if you are a recreational fencer, you deserve to be taught sound fencing concepts and actions from the start, and that means working with a coach that understands and knows those concepts, which is usually something more than "parry 4 looks like this".

A

*Again, I'm speaking of coaching in a club/program environment, for the most part.

[MdA]

I have fenced for three years now …….. I am hoping to one day become a coach and maybe open a club if I can ever afford it. Can anyone please advise on what to do in order to make this dream of mine come true? Thanks!
Yours,

Anatole de Breuilly

The OP mentions wanting to open his own club someday….if he can ever afford it. I assumed he wants to be a pretty good coach and would not be satisfied with coaching 8-year-olds for the rest of his life. He could start coaching now with only three years of experience and figure it out as he goes along.

Bitter experience?…..people have argued against certification…..against structured training programs for coaches…..now the suggestion is made that a coach doesn’t even need to be a good fencer!

I didn’t say you need to go to a World Cup….or that you need an A-rating. The years of experience that Allen, RIT and I support include more than just coaching specific skills. It includes refereeing, armoring, tournament management, club management, and people skills….and I agree with Allen…you never know when the light bulb is going to go off in your head….but I do know that you have to give it some time.

These things were part of the American Fencing Academy (AFA) program at Cornell. It was a Fencing Master training program instituted by MdA Jean-Jacques Gillet. This was an intensive program which included all the things Allen, RIT, and I mention…and it was accelerated (2-years)….and it included exams at the end. Nothing like it exists in the USA today….so an apprenticeship is your next best option…and it will probably take longer if you are splicing together your own development program.

…and there is nothing wrong with teaching 8-year olds. I did it myself…and I give you credit because I don’t have the patience anymore. But, I believe even 8-years-olds taught by someone like iris Zimmerman will probably do a lot better than those taught by someone with only three years of experience.

….and let’s look at coaches at the higher end of the spectrum….what if the OP wants to become a top level coach? I like to use the successful club coaches that get hired at varsity college programs as examples. Let’s look at Andy Ma (Penn) and Gia Kvaratskhelia (Notre Dame) both products of the Chinese national and former Soviet national programs respectively. Experience as a fencer matters.

[Fencergrl]

I dunno. I think it's okay to be a beginner coach, and to use that as a reason to not develop.

I agree with Allen. As a coach, you need to develop. If you're not developing, then everything gets stagnant.

I've chosen to introduce fencing in the schools and coach kids and recreational fencers. I make it clear at the beginning of the sessions with the rec centre that there is a limit to how far I'm able to take their fencing. I encourage my students to compete. I also encourage them to see higher levels of training by introducing them to those coaches and encouraging them to take lessons at their club.

I recognize that I'm in a unique setting my primary business is the school program & school break camps where I'm dealing with kids who have no idea fencing exists in their area and feeding any interested fencers to the closest local club. My secondary business is introducing fencing in my local community centre. I consider this aspect of my business is partly paid & partly volunteer. Despite, this I make every attempt to improve & develop as a coach, (as Allen points out) it's unfair to my students otherwise if I'm not giving them my best.

My previous posts were a bit of a knee jerk. I was flinching at some of the ways some people were discussing what is required to be a good coach and I was making an argument for context. Allen is right however in pointing out that in many cases, a person who opens a club and coaches often coaches all types of fencers. In that context, the comments made by him and others are perfectly valid. However... based on the rep comments, I can't help but wonder if there's others like I who just teach beginners and love doing it.

Edit: I've take Aide Moniteur training. I wish the coaching clinics were more frequent in my area. I know of several besides myself who would like to develop professionally. I see this as critical as part of building a good base of coaches in any country.

[Bonehead]

Sometimes I think that we're a little bit pretentious as fencers. I don't think there is any question that fencers being trained by expert/experienced coaches, at any level beginner-advanced, are going to fair better than if they get someone who isn't really interested in becoming a better coach.

I am also sure that fencers who begin with a 'bad' coach are likely to develop habits that might follow them for their entire fencing career.

But I think these things are true for every sport.

I personally have a particular distaste for coaches that appear to have learned out of a book they read... once... And they often produce less then stellar fencers, and propogate strange, and misleading ideas about fencing which damage the sport as a whole.

But these people also give us more fencers. And they generate interest.

Allowing/accepting (whatever that means) this sort of coach to exist, means that the ability to become a 'coach' is more accessible to more people, which means an introduction to the sport (no matter how convoluted) is more accessible to more people.

obviously I would prefer it if we had huge plethoras of people who wanted to become dedicated and serious, but I think there is also space for someones dad to gain a little experience, and introduce fencing to kids.

Huge caveats on the issue safety of course.

[KD5MDK]

I personally have a particular distaste for coaches that appear to have learned out of a book they read... once... And they often produce less then stellar fencers, and propogate strange, and misleading ideas about fencing which damage the sport as a whole.

This. When you're participating in fencing at a tournament and a "coach" with no clue how the game is actually played starts complaining about why their fencers can never get a touch, it makes you hate them for their poor concept of what's going on. If those coaches never go to tournaments and never send their fencers to them directly, I suppose it's ok, but it's a really frustrating experience otherwise.

But these people also give us more fencers. And they generate interest.

Allowing/accepting (whatever that means) this sort of coach to exist, means that the ability to become a 'coach' is more accessible to more people, which means an introduction to the sport (no matter how convoluted) is more accessible to more people.

Well, the obvious solution is to have 10,000 professional coaches who basically outcompete the ones who don't bother developing.

[KD5MDK]

I personally have a particular distaste for coaches that appear to have learned out of a book they read... once... And they often produce less then stellar fencers, and propogate strange, and misleading ideas about fencing which damage the sport as a whole.

This. When you're participating in fencing at a tournament and a "coach" with no clue how the game is actually played starts complaining about why their fencers can never get a touch, it makes you hate them for their poor concept of what's going on. If those coaches never go to tournaments and never send their fencers to them directly, I suppose it's ok, but it's a really frustrating experience otherwise.

But these people also give us more fencers. And they generate interest.

Allowing/accepting (whatever that means) this sort of coach to exist, means that the ability to become a 'coach' is more accessible to more people, which means an introduction to the sport (no matter how convoluted) is more accessible to more people.

Well, the obvious solution is to have 10,000 professional coaches who basically outcompete the ones who don't bother developing.

[Bonehead]

Well, the obvious solution is to have 10,000 professional coaches who basically outcompete the ones who don't bother developing.

Obviously your joking here, but I guarentee you, a country that has 10 000 coaches with an average of 10 fencers each, will probably produce some pretty damn good fencers, regardless of the education of these coaches.

[Allen Evans]

It's true that at the base of every sport, there are local coaches who are often operating with less than perfect training. But in many other sports, there are many more reasources for the players, parents, and other coaches to differentiate good information from bad information. In fencing, this isn't true. The information is scarce, and hard to find. As a result, a lot of mistakes are made, and some of those mistakes can cause damage, either in injuries through poor mechanics, or turing the kids off the sport because the coahc doesn't know enough and the kids get frustrated, or stuck.

When you go to the US Nationals, it's pretty obvious that there are two different sports being played with the same equipment. This is true in a lot of sports (having been watching a few local basketball pick up games lately, I can attest to this) but it happens with a higher percentage of fencers than it should. I think this can be laid at the feet of uneven coaching in the US. We throw away a lot of talent in this country simply because of bad coaching.

Again. I'm not trying to advocate that if you aren ot or were not an elite coach, you shouldn't be coaching. But I do advocate that if you're going to start a group a kids on a path to a lifetime sport, you owe it to them to know as much about the sport as you can, and then to work hard to improve that knowlege. I started as an assistant coach at my college club after I had been fencing for less than a year. I probably ruined a LOT of fencers in the next few years. But I also realized that I liked coaching, that I was going to continue to coach, and so I used a lot of my own money and time to get training, including competitive lessons (in all three weapons) and coaching education. I'm still not done with my education, I'm probably NEVER going to be done, but I feel that even as a coach in recreational program, I owe it to my students to be the best coach I can be.

A

[Fencergrl]

It's true that at the base of every sport, there are local coaches who are often operating with less than perfect training. But in many other sports, there are many more reasources for the players, parents, and other coaches to differentiate good information from bad information.

Good point. Many sports are taught in schools, so the child experiences different coaches. Many sports can be seen on TV or professionals playing them. For many sports there is a much greater access to information. Most parents don't even know where to find equipment much less information on the sport.

[hscoach]

It is great you mentioned "mistakes". Great coaches remember their mistakes and see the mistakes in others. Keep a notebook or index cards and right down all the mistakes you can remember making and then write down various ways you corrected your mistakes. Write down any drills you have done in class. Write down comments your coach or other coaches make that you think are helpful. Just keep writing and remembering. Start quietly in your mind being a coach, when you see someone else fence or practice drills think of what you would do to improve their game, form, skill level, etc. Being a coach and being a fencer can be a very different mindset. Best of luck.