The rear arm in the En Garde position

[piste off]

How does this follow?

I've heard it best described as a "like a rudder." The tought is that the direction/control of your front arm is influenced by the direction of your back arm. Would it be preferred to have your front and back arms 180 degrees or at 90?

R-

[Allen Evans]

In so far as the direction of your front arm can be effected by the position of any part of your body (standing on one foot, twisting your head to look behind you, etc), I suppose it can't be dismissed outright. However, I suspect the "rudder" idea is just another way to justify an arm position people are reluctant to abandon out of "tradition".

A

[Ken Mondschein]

I'm not sure the explanation holds any more water than the lantern theory. They might have done that with the hand in Spain, but OTOH one could just as easily assert that it came from one of the Italian off-hand dagger positions...or the I.33 buckler holds, for that matter.

Except that you can see a clear evolution in 17th and 18th centuries treatises. It also happens to be quite elegant in a baroque kind of way, equivalent to some of the gestures in contemporary theatre.

It ALSO, when done correctly, it does all that's been advertised: Profiles the body, balances the fencer, adds velocity to the lunge, relaxes the shoulders.

Is this a reason to keep it in the modern game? Should you teach it to the kids who come in your door? No. It's too hard to learn and too easy to screw up, which will cramp the student's style. Modern pedagogy does not favor correcting every kid every time his or her body deviates from the approved position, but rather in teaching them to make fencing actions with accuracy, balance, and rapidity. I'd also argue that the classical stance is more balanced or even back-weighted and the footwork is very conservative, which is suited to the arm position; the modern stance is more forwards and the footwork is rapid and explosive. Keeping the arm down and throwing it up for the lunge does almost everything the classical position does, but in a way more suited to the modern game.

The only way in which the classical back-arm position works optimally with the modern game is if you've been doing it so long that it'd be an effort to change. I teach it to my classical fencing students, but I'm not going to introduce it in the sport club. If you're going to be classical, be classical; if you're going to be a competitive modern fencer, be modern, but don't mix them.

[thekoby]

Two of the most consistent US epee fencers, Seth Kelsey and Walt Dragonetti both keep their back arm up. It really becomes apparent when they bear down (meaning you are in trouble).


Walt’s is more like the classic scorpion tail. We shared the same coach, and the logic was for balance and better direction of the front arm. More on the arm extension than value in the lunge, although that advantage is certainly there I think.


R-

Here is an image of me (on the left) fencing Walt about a month ago in Fort Wayne. I don't really remember him doing the scorpion tail. This was the best picture I could find with his arm somewhat in the same position. However, that's not to say that he thoroughly cleaned my clock :-p

http://kobystudios.com/koby-walt.jpg

[Inquartata]

Most people crack and he will take advantage of it.

Or crack up, maybe.

His technique is very, very, very good. I've heard people comment that he is unconventional, but they really need to look at his final actions. Technically wonderful.

Which is why I said maybe he's good enough to get away with some bad things.

I mean, there's a certain top US epeeist who fences with both feet perpendicular to the line of the strip. Is THAT a good technique because he does it and somehow makes it work, or is it still a bad technique in spite of his success with it?

Except that you can see a clear evolution in 17th and 18th centuries treatises.

Can I? Why don't I, then?

It also happens to be quite elegant in a baroque kind of way, equivalent to some of the gestures in contemporary theatre.

Another question entirely, of course.

[Ken Mondschein]

can i? Why don't i, then?

Because I'm the fencing history smarty-man!

[Bonehead]

Because I'm the fencing history smarty-man!

Can you back up your assertions of relaxed bodies and balance with anything?

[Allen Evans]

That's an interesting challenge, because so little of what we do as fencing coaches is backed up by ANYTHING scientific, especially when we talk about body motions, positions and actions. Then, when we take in the nature of the sport itself, things get even more complicated Simply having a faster lunge than another fencer -- for example -- doesn't convey a tactical advantage commensurate with the difference in the speeds of the two lunges.

There's a lot of work to be done on the physiology and kinesiology of fencing.

[Bonehead]

That's a good point. But I simply don't believe that holding your arm flexed and upright does anything for your balance. But who knows. I'm willing to be convinced. I suppose it too much to ask for a study given how few we have about most things in fencing.

[Ken Mondschein]

My personal feeling is that it shifts your balance back vs. the modern position. But that's only my sense of my own body. To be clear, I'm not an advocate of the raised rear arm in the modern game. It's part of the classical art, not the modern sport.

There is data that flinging a limb back accelerates your lunge, though. And that back arm has to help with balance, like a cat's tail, right? Can I prove it? Hell no.

[Inquartata]

I would think that keeping your arm up in the air could only make one less relaxed. After all, arms hanging down by your sides is the natural posture; anything departing from that, I would argue, necessitates more tension, not less...

I can see the 'accelerate the lunge' thing, but having tried it I cannot detect any difference in lunge speed or distance, so perhaps any added impetus is too minimal to actually be helpful. One would think that if it added an increment of speed ( uh oh, that stupid imprecise non-physics word again! ) that it would still be in use. Atletics is pretty ruthless in discarding things that don't work and replacing them with things that do, or that at least work better.

[Bonehead]

My personal feeling is that it shifts your balance back vs. the modern position. But that's only my sense of my own body. To be clear, I'm not an advocate of the raised rear arm in the modern game. It's part of the classical art, not the modern sport.

There is data that flinging a limb back accelerates your lunge, though. And that back arm has to help with balance, like a cat's tail, right? Can I prove it? Hell no.

why would it only apply to classical fencing? I would think that balance would have more importance as the speeds increased, not less. As for flinging your arm back, while it must add some force to your lunge, I'm pretty sure the added velocity is gonna be neglible.

[erooMynohtnA]

He means he does it for the look of it.

[jfarmer]

why would it only apply to classical fencing? I would think that balance would have more importance as the speeds increased, not less. As for flinging your arm back, while it must add some force to your lunge, I'm pretty sure the added velocity is gonna be neglible.

As Ken indicated, Classical Fencing and Contemporary Sport Fencing are two different animals. In Classical Fencing, there is a "form" or style that you aspire to. In Sport Fencing, baring covering target, no one really cares what your form looks like.

Different animals, different goals.

[Inquartata]

I'll bet your coach cares what your form looks like...

[Hauptman]

How does this follow?

Many people have a tendency to throw back the rear arm during a lunge, regardless of whether the rear arm was raised or not.

If the rear arm was down then throwing it back during the lunge will likely have a horizontal vector which could cause the torso to rotate, and affect the weapon arm.

If the rear arm was raised then throwing it back during the lunge will likely maintain the same straight line backwards, and not have any impact on the torso or weapon arm.

.... in theory, of course.

[Hauptman]

I teach my beginner fencers to hold their arm in the "scorpion tail" position at the start of foil lessons for two reasons: one, it helps them learn the keep their body in profile to the opponent while keeping the shoulders relaxed, and two, because it helps them to remember to keep the back hand out of the way of the action. After the first three weeks, I let them relax and do what they please with the arm as long as they remain relaxed and mind that target area.

I agree with this. A raised rear arm helps to maintain a proper line for the torso and shoulders, and is very useful for teaching. Once the proper body position becomes ingrained then it's not necessary to have the rear arm up, but it is a useful reminder.

From a personal perspective, I fence with the rear arm down, but I practice with the rear arm up periodically if I find my rear shoulder drooping, and my body slouching into a poor posture.