Flicks and back of the head protection

[Phillip Inoy]

HELP!!! Please!!!!

Flicks are a powerful weapon in today's arsenal. But even the best at
this particular tool can err in its use and it can cause some severe
pain.

Fortunately in my case I was not injured, but my friend who I can
assure you is quite awesome with this weapon was a bit off form tonite
and I was hit with the flat of the blade in the neck and across the
back of the head a total of 3-4 times in a bout. 2 more times in the
next.

I neither blame him since he is my close friend nor should this be
interpreted as something other than a sincere request to all out there
reading this...eg I'm not whining. **** happens to the best of us and
the worst(me)

However, it hurt so badly that I don't want it to happen again, nor do
I want to approach him about it; I don't want him to feel awkward when
he fences me...but it did hurt badly enough that I don't want it to
happen again.

I have seen a mask that would solve my problem. I know the Musketier
brand is gone due to some strain with the FIE, but their design would
largely prevent what happened to me and it would allow people who use
this flick to fence without fear of injuring their opponents head.

I have currently an XL Leon Paul mask but my head is large and it
protrudes a bit from the rear of the mask.

I am writing because someone I know who was at the Ohio NAC saw a
newer model and was wondering if SOMEONE can point me in the direction
of this new mask

OR

if they have a reasonably well kept Musketier version that's extra
large that they're willing to part with. I ask that if any of you has
such a mask that you please sell it to me and that it will pass a
punch test. I had heard that the musketier brand had forged their FIE
stamp or something...yet I know someone who has one that passes the
punch test and he swears by that mask. After tonite, I can see why.

I wish that I could myself create such a mask but for obvious reasons
I can't

I would truly feel indebted to any who can help in this matter :-)

Yours Truly,

Phillip J. Inoy

[Chris Zakes]

On 6 Jan 2003 23:31:52 -0800, debergerac@ziplip.com (Phillip Inoy)
wrote:

>HELP!!! Please!!!!
>
>Flicks are a powerful weapon in today's arsenal. But even the best at
>this particular tool can err in its use and it can cause some severe
>pain.
>
>Fortunately in my case I was not injured, but my friend who I can
>assure you is quite awesome with this weapon was a bit off form tonite
>and I was hit with the flat of the blade in the neck and across the
>back of the head a total of 3-4 times in a bout. 2 more times in the
>next.

(snip for space)

Would it be feasible to wear something like a baseball cap or sun
visor backwards under your mask? I think the bill of the cap would
provide reasonable protection.

Alternatively, would it be possible to add some stiff leather across
the back of the mask? (It's a fairly common technique in the SCA,
where the whole body is required to be covered, but I don't know if
modern fencing rules would allow it.)

-Chris Zakes
Texas

A politician may be distinguished from a statesman in
that the former is, unfortunately, not dead.

Adapted from "The Devil's Dictionary" by Ambrose Bierce

[Stuart Johnson]

Another option to be considered if you can't find a Muskatier is just
to wear a cap backwards under your mask. The cap itself covers the
head and the bill comes down over the neck.
The New LP comfort fit masks with the plate liek thing on the back
might give better protection too. But not having worn one I couldn't
really say.

On 6 Jan 2003 23:31:52 -0800, debergerac@ziplip.com (Phillip Inoy)
wrote:

>HELP!!! Please!!!!
>
>Flicks are a powerful weapon in today's arsenal. But even the best at
>this particular tool can err in its use and it can cause some severe
>pain.
>
>Fortunately in my case I was not injured, but my friend who I can
>assure you is quite awesome with this weapon was a bit off form tonite
>and I was hit with the flat of the blade in the neck and across the
>back of the head a total of 3-4 times in a bout. 2 more times in the
>next.
>
>I neither blame him since he is my close friend nor should this be
>interpreted as something other than a sincere request to all out there
>reading this...eg I'm not whining. **** happens to the best of us and
>the worst(me)
>
>However, it hurt so badly that I don't want it to happen again, nor do
>I want to approach him about it; I don't want him to feel awkward when
>he fences me...but it did hurt badly enough that I don't want it to
>happen again.
>
>I have seen a mask that would solve my problem. I know the Musketier
>brand is gone due to some strain with the FIE, but their design would
>largely prevent what happened to me and it would allow people who use
>this flick to fence without fear of injuring their opponents head.
>
>I have currently an XL Leon Paul mask but my head is large and it
>protrudes a bit from the rear of the mask.
>
>I am writing because someone I know who was at the Ohio NAC saw a
>newer model and was wondering if SOMEONE can point me in the direction
>of this new mask
>
>OR
>
>if they have a reasonably well kept Musketier version that's extra
>large that they're willing to part with. I ask that if any of you has
>such a mask that you please sell it to me and that it will pass a
>punch test. I had heard that the musketier brand had forged their FIE
>stamp or something...yet I know someone who has one that passes the
>punch test and he swears by that mask. After tonite, I can see why.
>
>I wish that I could myself create such a mask but for obvious reasons
>I can't
>
>I would truly feel indebted to any who can help in this matter :-)
>
>Yours Truly,
>
>Phillip J. Inoy


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[J. Christoph Amberger]

Hmmm, let me recap:

To get hit on the back of your head, your head must be in a position that is

a) below its natural elevated state
b) so close to the opponent that the entire foible of the opponent's blade
wraps around the back rim of your mask.

You could thus:

a) cut up a basketball, stuff it with old socks and attach it to yor head,
maybe with an old jockstrap, before putting the mask on.

Or

b) keep proper distance and posture.

I wonder what a fencer would do...

Chris Amberger

[Amy & Joseph Kormann]

Chris Zakes wrote:

>On 6 Jan 2003 23:31:52 -0800, debergerac@ziplip.com (Phillip Inoy)
>wrote:
>
>
>
>>HELP!!! Please!!!!
>>
>>Flicks are a powerful weapon in today's arsenal. But even the best at
>>this particular tool can err in its use and it can cause some severe
>>pain.
>>
>>Fortunately in my case I was not injured, but my friend who I can
>>assure you is quite awesome with this weapon was a bit off form tonite
>>and I was hit with the flat of the blade in the neck and across the
>>back of the head a total of 3-4 times in a bout. 2 more times in the
>>next.
>>
>>
>
>(snip for space)
>
>Would it be feasible to wear something like a baseball cap or sun
>visor backwards under your mask? I think the bill of the cap would
>provide reasonable protection.
>
>Alternatively, would it be possible to add some stiff leather across
>the back of the mask? (It's a fairly common technique in the SCA,
>where the whole body is required to be covered, but I don't know if
>modern fencing rules would allow it.)
>
> -Chris Zakes
> Texas
>
>A politician may be distinguished from a statesman in
>that the former is, unfortunately, not dead.
>
> Adapted from "The Devil's Dictionary" by Ambrose Bierce
>
>
Chris and Phillip, TCA sells hoods for SCA use. They're double-thick
cotton cowels that you wear over your head, under the mask. I'm not sure
how they'll play in foil though, b/c they drape just below the
neck-line. The suggestion for a piece of leather isn't bad, but the
experience has been uncomfortably hot. One idea that I've seen and liked
is to get some velcro and attach a durable cloth to the back of the
mask, covering the opening. When my hood finally dies, I'll be making
myself one of those.

-Joseph

--
Amy and Joseph Kormann

[Mark Andrews]

After receiving such a hit, I would take my weapon and hit my opponent as
hard as possible around the head. They would think twice before doing it
again.

The flick...outside of top fencing should be avoided at all costs. It is
merely an indication of a fencer's lack of repertoire. A fencer who flicks
and, by accident or deliberately, hurts his opponent, has forgotten his
obligation to adhere to the code of honor.


in article 97b3a9dd.0301062331.5100dbce@posting.google.com, Phillip Inoy at
debergerac@ziplip.com wrote on 1/7/03 2:31 AM:

> HELP!!! Please!!!!
>
> Flicks are a powerful weapon in today's arsenal. But even the best at
> this particular tool can err in its use and it can cause some severe
> pain.
>
> Fortunately in my case I was not injured, but my friend who I can
> assure you is quite awesome with this weapon was a bit off form tonite
> and I was hit with the flat of the blade in the neck and across the
> back of the head a total of 3-4 times in a bout. 2 more times in the
> next.
>
> I neither blame him since he is my close friend nor should this be
> interpreted as something other than a sincere request to all out there
> reading this...eg I'm not whining. **** happens to the best of us and
> the worst(me)
>
> However, it hurt so badly that I don't want it to happen again, nor do
> I want to approach him about it; I don't want him to feel awkward when
> he fences me...but it did hurt badly enough that I don't want it to
> happen again.
>
> I have seen a mask that would solve my problem. I know the Musketier
> brand is gone due to some strain with the FIE, but their design would
> largely prevent what happened to me and it would allow people who use
> this flick to fence without fear of injuring their opponents head.
>
> I have currently an XL Leon Paul mask but my head is large and it
> protrudes a bit from the rear of the mask.
>
> I am writing because someone I know who was at the Ohio NAC saw a
> newer model and was wondering if SOMEONE can point me in the direction
> of this new mask
>
> OR
>
> if they have a reasonably well kept Musketier version that's extra
> large that they're willing to part with. I ask that if any of you has
> such a mask that you please sell it to me and that it will pass a
> punch test. I had heard that the musketier brand had forged their FIE
> stamp or something...yet I know someone who has one that passes the
> punch test and he swears by that mask. After tonite, I can see why.
>
> I wish that I could myself create such a mask but for obvious reasons
> I can't
>
> I would truly feel indebted to any who can help in this matter :-)
>
> Yours Truly,
>
> Phillip J. Inoy

[David Arias]

When people are getting hurt, for any reason, it's a coaching problem. Not
just with regard to training, but proper supervision.

OK, so this guy accidently lands a flick on the back of your head. That
happens, although very VERY rarely have I seen it in our club. But to have
it happen several times in a row?!?! If it was just that one evening, then
he should be politely asked to not flick until he has it under control. I
mean tell him respectfully, but clearly.

The problem can easily be handled nicely, but it needs to be handled.

David


"Stuart Johnson" <swordsen@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:kr5n1v030de6elbrrovhm91m7d4jkiegqq@4ax.com...
> Another option to be considered if you can't find a Muskatier is just
> to wear a cap backwards under your mask. The cap itself covers the
> head and the bill comes down over the neck.
> The New LP comfort fit masks with the plate liek thing on the back
> might give better protection too. But not having worn one I couldn't
> really say.
>
> On 6 Jan 2003 23:31:52 -0800, debergerac@ziplip.com (Phillip Inoy)
> wrote:
>
> >HELP!!! Please!!!!
> >
> >Flicks are a powerful weapon in today's arsenal. But even the best at
> >this particular tool can err in its use and it can cause some severe
> >pain.
> >
> >Fortunately in my case I was not injured, but my friend who I can
> >assure you is quite awesome with this weapon was a bit off form tonite
> >and I was hit with the flat of the blade in the neck and across the
> >back of the head a total of 3-4 times in a bout. 2 more times in the
> >next.
> >
> >I neither blame him since he is my close friend nor should this be
> >interpreted as something other than a sincere request to all out there
> >reading this...eg I'm not whining. **** happens to the best of us and
> >the worst(me)
> >
> >However, it hurt so badly that I don't want it to happen again, nor do
> >I want to approach him about it; I don't want him to feel awkward when
> >he fences me...but it did hurt badly enough that I don't want it to
> >happen again.
> >
> >I have seen a mask that would solve my problem. I know the Musketier
> >brand is gone due to some strain with the FIE, but their design would
> >largely prevent what happened to me and it would allow people who use
> >this flick to fence without fear of injuring their opponents head.
> >
> >I have currently an XL Leon Paul mask but my head is large and it
> >protrudes a bit from the rear of the mask.
> >
> >I am writing because someone I know who was at the Ohio NAC saw a
> >newer model and was wondering if SOMEONE can point me in the direction
> >of this new mask
> >
> >OR
> >
> >if they have a reasonably well kept Musketier version that's extra
> >large that they're willing to part with. I ask that if any of you has
> >such a mask that you please sell it to me and that it will pass a
> >punch test. I had heard that the musketier brand had forged their FIE
> >stamp or something...yet I know someone who has one that passes the
> >punch test and he swears by that mask. After tonite, I can see why.
> >
> >I wish that I could myself create such a mask but for obvious reasons
> >I can't
> >
> >I would truly feel indebted to any who can help in this matter :-)
> >
> >Yours Truly,
> >
> >Phillip J. Inoy
>
>
> __________________________________________________ ____________________
> Posted Via Uncensored-News.Com - Still Only $9.95 -
http://www.uncensored-news.com
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<><><><><><><><>
>

[Dieter Schlaepfer]

Mark Andrews wrote:
> After receiving such a hit, I would take my weapon and hit my opponent as
> hard as possible around the head. They would think twice before doing it
> again.

The legal term for what you propose is called "assault and battery." Not
a good idea.

A likely reason that the flick landed at the back of Phillip's head is
that his distance was too close and he may have been ducking his head.
I've seen two instances of this at tournaments. In one case, the fencer
repeatedly used his mask as a shield--which worked several times until
his opponent started flicking to his exposed back. Unfortunately, one of
those flicks landed on the back of the fencer's neck, a very dangerous
move that has attracted the attention of the FIE. The director should
have called a penalty against the fencer who ducked.

> The flick...outside of top fencing should be avoided at all costs. It is
> merely an indication of a fencer's lack of repertoire. A fencer who flicks
> and, by accident or deliberately, hurts his opponent, has forgotten his
> obligation to adhere to the code of honor.

This is a controversial subject and flamebait. I used to be against the
flick but changed my mind when I saw how it forces fencers to fence
upright rather than hunched over, and adds beauty and energy to the
sport when executed properly. I have also seen by son repeated whacked
by a fencer who wasn't trained to use the flick. Again, I believe it is
the responsibility of the director to issue a red card for brutality in
such blatant cases.

Dieter

[Phillip Inoy]

Dieter Schlaepfer <schlae@sonic.nospam.net> wrote in message
(SNIP FOR VOLUME)



> A likely reason that the flick landed at the back of Phillip's head is
> that his distance was too close and he may have been ducking his head.

I'm sorry, but most of the closing of the distance is usually done by
the instigator of the flick especially when they are trying to hit you
mid-back. Believe me, the difference in skill between he and I is so
great that I don't want to be anywhere near him.

As for the bending over, that should make it EASIER for him to land
the flick since my back is more exposed. It should never be the cause
of him landing flat on my neck. Luckily nothing seems to be wrong for
the moment.

Truth be told, he is usually amazingly accurate with it; though it
stings from time to time.

I wonder if anyone has done a study on the actual impact a flick has
when it lands on the vertebrae of someone's spine or some similar hard
object. The foil has essentially become a metal whip with a weight on
the end...with the mechanical advantages afforded by modern pistol
grips, and the foil tip's ability to spiral and arc down on a
target....I'm surprised it hasn't done more damage.

Finally, I'm not against the flick per se, but the FIE should force
manufacturers to keep up with the times and order the masks to provide
whipover protection. Also, the spine needs to be protected...just some
open celled foam under a water hardened piece of cowhide will do.
Unfortunately it would look awful under such tight fitting
outfits....but i won't be fencing him or anyone unless I at least
figure out how to protect the head with at least as much protection as
that Musketier mask.

The reason I appealed to all of you on this group was that within the
context of fencing, since I'm a newbie to the sport, I can't really
defend myself against it. In fact not at all, and its not for lack of
trying....but I haven't been fencing for decades and just can't defend
against it within the context of fencing. I like fencing people who
are loads better than me because I learn alot that way, but also, the
senior fencer should tailor his attacks to the level of the weaker
player.

I know in Serrada Eskrima we don't blatantly overwhelm beginners with
stuff they can't handle....but what can I say? Fencing isn't a martial
art anymore. Rather its an elaborate game of tag where people are
focused on training to win and doing what they can to get there. To me
it's not an issue of usage...the flick is here to stay...but what can
people, experienced or beginner do to protect themselves from
accidents via the flick? Is a backwards baseball cap the best
WE(rec.sport.fencing) can come up with? There must be something else.
I suppose its a start but geez...

As for ducking, frankly I can't see WHY a man should be penalized for
trying to get out of the way and using a little gamesmanship via his
mask.. The flick is also a type of gamesmanship really...with the
proper protection it could be an incredible tool to make fencing a
visibly popular sport. I like the flick as a concept. But penalizing a
fencer for ducking when the guy couldn't block it(I assume thats why
he ducked) is absurd.

Finally Dieter, you are correct about the assault and battery issue.
And even from a chivalrous standpoint I just don't like hurting
people.

This whole string was to be see as a forum on how to adequately and
within USFA/FIE rules protect oneself with various pieces of
equipment. I don't want to retaliate against Mr. Flickster...he's a
CLOSE friend which makes it tough to approach him about it. Also, I'm
a bit too Confucian in my beliefs to broach it with him. I just wanted
to quietly find a way to armor myself so that he could continue to
fence at his best...and in the way he is most comfortable fencing
whilst protecting myself. Then if he saw to what lengths I was going
to then he'd might feel obliged to tone it down a bit.

I hope we can find a way.

Phillip J. Inoy

[Dieter Schlaepfer]

Phillip Inoy wrote:

<SNIP>

> I'm sorry, but most of the closing of the distance is usually done by
> the instigator of the flick especially when they are trying to hit you
> mid-back.

Controlling the distance is a big part of the skill of fencing. It truly
amazing to see top fencers *really* move (four gears in reverse) to
maintain distance and to chose an unexpected time to step in!

> As for the bending over, that should make it EASIER for him to land
> the flick since my back is more exposed.

Very true.

> It should never be the cause of him landing flat on my neck.

You're exposing your neck, which you shouldn't do. His accuracy may not
be 100% (although landing the point on your neck is very poor accuracy).

> I wonder if anyone has done a study on the actual impact a flick has
> when it lands on the vertebrae of someone's spine or some similar hard
> object.

Yes, it's been done. A strong flick has an enormous energy. A doctor who
fences told me that such an action can break a part of the vertebrae on
the back of your neck. This is very serious and potentially fatal.

> The reason I appealed to all of you on this group was that within the
> context of fencing, since I'm a newbie to the sport, I can't really
> defend myself against it.

You need to parry high, extending your arm to catch your opponent's
blade earlier. His blade will still whip around your blade, but it will
hit thin air instead.

> I know in Serrada Eskrima we don't blatantly overwhelm beginners with
> stuff they can't handle....but what can I say?

Yes, I agree. It's not much fun for anyone when a more experienced
fencer takes advantage of a less experienced fencer. The advanced fencer
should take the opportunity to perfect simple, basic actions.

> Fencing isn't a martial art anymore. Rather its an elaborate game of tag
> where people are focused on training to win and doing what they can to
> get there.

That's right. Otherwise, fencers would use sharp points! I recall
reading an excerpt of an Italian master a few centuries ago: he claimed
that the introduction of the mask and the lunge ruined fencing. He
claimed that with a mask, fencers would attempt actions that would be
suicidal in a duel. The lunge was a very risky move that a fencer should
not think of using on uneven ground!

> As for ducking, frankly I can't see WHY a man should be penalized for
> trying to get out of the way and using a little gamesmanship via his
> mask..

The FIE has ruled the ducking maneuver as "covering target" and is
subject to penalty.

> I like the flick as a concept. But penalizing a
> fencer for ducking when the guy couldn't block it(I assume thats why
> he ducked) is absurd.

You need to learn how to parry the flick (or to counter-attack in time)
and it will lose its power over you.

Best wishes,

Dieter

[Dieter Schlaepfer]

Dieter Schlaepfer wrote:

> I recall reading an excerpt of an Italian master a few centuries ago . . .

<blush> I meant to say "Italian master *of* a few centuries ago." I'm
not *that* old. <grin>

Dieter

[Wolf]

> To get hit on the back of your head, your head must be in a position that
is
>
> a) below its natural elevated state
> b) so close to the opponent that the entire foible of the opponent's blade
> wraps around the back rim of your mask.

Not necessarily. I got hit once by a side-shot flick by a fencer who was
taller than me and jumped forward with the flick and forgot to recalibrate
his aim.

Luckily his distance was thrown off sufficient that his blade hit the side
of my head before the tip landed.

> b) keep proper distance and posture.
>
> I wonder what a fencer would do...

The point is that sometimes **** happens. You can be in-fighting and against
all reason someone goes for a flick to the back and wildly misses. You could
5'3" fencing someone 6'3" throwing a flick from God. They could come with a
flick off of a flying leap. Who's to say? Sometimes even professional race
car drivers crash spectacularly. They wear safety equipment for times like
those. Why are we being so arrogant about it?

-Bill

[J. Christoph Amberger]

Fencing ain't race car driving. There is a fencing solution for every fencing
problem. If you don't want to get flicked REPEATEDLY in the back of the head,
you adjust your behavior. Or wear a marmalade bucket on your head.

Chris

[Lion]

I have hit people in the back of the head, and have myself been hit.
It can happen when, for example, I fleche at my oponent, he parries me
in four, and I try to hit his back as I run past.

As the defender, I frequently face fast flechers. They fleche, I
parry with a large, diagonal six, but by the time I riposte they are
passing me, so I hit by reaching backwards over my shoulder. This may
hit their back or their head.

[ObeeKris]

debergerac@ziplip.com (Phillip Inoy) wrote
> Truth be told, he is usually amazingly accurate with it; though it
> stings from time to time.

"Usually" is not always. You did not say, in this or your original
post on the topic, that this was the first time he's done this. To
me, this sounds like something very similar has happened from him in
the past.

From your original post:

"Fortunately in my case I was not injured, but my friend who I can
assure you is quite awesome with this weapon was a bit off form tonite
and I was hit with the flat of the blade in the neck and across the
back of the head a total of 3-4 times in a bout. 2 more times in the
next.

However, it hurt so badly that I don't want it to happen again, nor do
I want to approach him about it; I don't want him to feel awkward when
he fences me...but it did hurt badly enough that I don't want it to
happen again."

So this happened to you at least 6 times in *one* night. He *should*
feel awkward about this. If it's happened to you, I'd be willing to
bet that it's happened to other people too.

> This whole string was to be see as a forum on how to adequately and
> within USFA/FIE rules protect oneself with various pieces of
> equipment. I don't want to retaliate against Mr. Flickster...he's a
> CLOSE friend which makes it tough to approach him about it. Also, I'm
> a bit too Confucian in my beliefs to broach it with him. I just wanted
> to quietly find a way to armor myself so that he could continue to
> fence at his best...and in the way he is most comfortable fencing
> whilst protecting myself. Then if he saw to what lengths I was going
> to then he'd might feel obliged to tone it down a bit.

He's such a close friend that you can't talk to him when he's doing
something dangerous, both to you and potentially others? Will you
wait until he's done this to somebody else and drawn blood, then go up
to them and say, "You know, he's *usually* pretty good at this."?
Small comfort for the person who's injured.
The thing is, he's not fencing at his best. He is repeatedly causing
harm with something he has direct control over.
The only way he's going to know that he needs to tone down his fencing
is if you say something to him directly. Otherwise all your
preparation will be useless if the action continues. The only thing
that happens will be that you don't get hurt.

Chris "ObeeKris" Lisy

[Honey Bunny]

> Hmmm, let me recap:
>
> To get hit on the back of your head, your head must be in a position that is
>
> a) below its natural elevated state
> b) so close to the opponent that the entire foible of the opponent's blade
> wraps around the back rim of your mask.
>


Not true at all. I have hit my coach on the back of the head more than
once with a flick during a lesson (definitely not intentionally - it
is something I try to avoid!). I am only 5'4". He is quite a bit
taller than me, but was perfectly upright when I hit him there. A
flick to back (rather than to the top of the shoulder) WILL wrap
around and hit the vertical plane (although you are trying to hit
someone on the back and not the back of the head...).

Honey

[J. Christoph Amberger]

<< A flick to back (rather than to the top of the shoulder) WILL wrap around
and hit the vertical plane (although you are trying to hit someone on the back
and not the back of the head...)>>

....which, of course, does not at all contradict my not about distance. If
there's enough foible to whip over shoulder or mask And hit flat on the back or
back of the head, the recipient is definitely deep within riposte distance...
which is a term from the time when foil was a thrusting weapon.