How Long Does a Black Card Exclude a Fencer?

[HOT Fencing Club]

Was looking at the card system tonight and have a question for you. (My apologies if this has been asked before.) Who/what determines how long a fencer is to be excluded from competing if they receive a Black Card?

Thanks for the help!

[Palisadeur]

This from the download of the FIE rules (book 1 - technical rules).
The file includes the date 01.08.2008 in it's title, but i only downloaded it about 8 months ago.

t.114.

2.
Penalties are cumulative and they are valid for the bout with the
exception of those indicated by a BLACK CARD, which means ex-
clusion from the competition, suspension for the remainder of the
tournament and for the following two months of the active season
(1 October – World Championships for the Juniors, and 1 January –
World Championships for the Seniors), whether current or forth-
coming.
However, a team excluded from a tournament because of a BLACK
CARD imposed on one of its members is not excluded as a team
from the following competitions, but it may not select the penalised
fencer.

[Omar Bhutta]

Was looking at the card system tonight and have a question for you. (My apologies if this has been asked before.) Who/what determines how long a fencer is to be excluded from competing if they receive a Black Card?

Thanks for the help!

You're in Texas? The US Fencing rules are different than the above quoted FIE rules in that a black card does not automatically entail temporary suspension. In fact, in the US, the referee and Bout Committee may only impose temporary suspension for refusal to salute (t.101.2). Otherwise, the rules are the same.

Exclusion can be be for the competition (t.106) or the tournament (t.107), and is at the discretion of the referee/bout committee. In general, the more severe the offense, the more severe the punishment, but there are no guidelines as to how these rules should be applied to various situations.

[Empty Wallet]

For Palisadeur's info, and anyone else interested, the Australian Federation sort of follows the FIE rulings. That is, the basic disqualification is for 2 months of the season (with some specification related the the southern hemisphere season being out of synch with the north)

The length can be varied to a shorter period when the black card is ratified. However, it also expires at the next national event for which the fencer is qualified to enter -- if this is less then 2 months. A situation happened when an age group fencer was black carded at the Juniors, but the disqualification expired after the next AFF open 3 weeks later.

http://ausfencing.org/home/index.php...d=55&Itemid=98

[HOT Fencing Club]

Great info, everyone! Thanks! And it's good to know the USFA's rules and the FIE. I appreciate it.

[HOT Fencing Club]

You're in Texas?

Yes.

[Fencergrl]

Is it ever longer? I seem to recall that the CFF (Canadian) suspended someone for 2 years for punching someone.

[Empty Wallet]

Is it ever longer? I seem to recall that the CFF (Canadian) suspended someone for 2 years for punching someone.

Not sure the black card can give a longer penalty. Certainly, our federation has other disciplinary powers that can be used to suspend or disaffiliate a fencer, officer, even clubs, for significant breaches.

Punching out another competitor would evoke that sort of disciplinary hearing and potential action.

Chapter 8 of the Canadian Federation's Rules gives detail of complaint procedures and potential penalties.

[mrbiggs]

Not sure the black card can give a longer penalty. Certainly, our federation has other disciplinary powers that can be used to suspend or disaffiliate a fencer, officer, even clubs, for significant breaches.

For example, setting fire to breakfast foods and throwing them

[peet]

Punching out another competitor would evoke that sort of disciplinary hearing and potential action.

If it's the example I'm thinking of*, I believe he punched a referee.

-p


* I sure hope there aren't more than one of these incidents!

[dsapery]

Like has been said by others, the USFA (I mean USA Fencing) rule is that a Black Card by itself doesn't extend beyond an event or tournament.

However, in the most egregious of cases, the Board of Directors can suspend a member, thus effectively extending the Black Card beyond the tournament. However this is a very time-consuming process, and typically the suspension, if warranted, won't be imposed until a year after the incident, after a full investigation.

[jjefferies]

Ignoring the USFA's rules, how long the Black Card affects one depends on what you did to get it. Had one of our chaps get one a week ago and he's still not showing his face as everyone wants to know what he really did to get it.

[Inquartata]

Like has been said by others, the USFA (I mean USA Fencing) rule is that a Black Card by itself doesn't extend beyond an event or tournament.

In the penalty chart, there is a footnote: (5) Suspension for two competitions.

I cannot see an infraction footnoted with a (5), however.

Is that an artifact of taking the penalty chart from the FIE rulebook, an obsolete footnote, or what?

( Maybe this should go in DHC's thread on rulebook inconsistencies? )

[Empty Wallet]

We have this listed in our sanctions:

Suspension (3) from the remainder of the competition taking place and from the following two FIE competitions in the weapon concerned. The points or titles obtained at the moment of the offence are retained.

It seems to only relate to failing/refusing to salute at the beginning or end of a bout. The British Fencing site does not have the same detail in the penalty chart that I can find.

[Inquartata]

Well, but we do not have access to the Elsewhere* rulebook.

BTW, are you in the same Zone as Erewhon?

[Omar Bhutta]

In the penalty chart, there is a footnote: (5) Suspension for two competitions.

I cannot see an infraction footnoted with a (5), however.

Is that an artifact of taking the penalty chart from the FIE rulebook, an obsolete footnote, or what?

( Maybe this should go in DHC's thread on rulebook inconsistencies? )

This is correct. This footnote is extraneous.

[DHCJr]

In the penalty chart, there is a footnote: (5) Suspension for two competitions.

I cannot see an infraction footnoted with a (5), however.

Is that an artifact of taking the penalty chart from the FIE rulebook, an obsolete footnote, or what?

( Maybe this should go in DHC's thread on rulebook inconsistencies? )

Don’t bother. The amount of errors in the USFA rulebook is mind-boggling. The footnote was changed in 2006 to (3). In both 2005 and 2006 it was a footnote for T.87.3, which dealt with saluting your opponent. The current footnotes came out in 2008.

The one thing that is interesting about the FIE change in 2008 is if on your last bout of the World Championship if you don’t salute, it means nothing. You have already lost your bout, so you are gone already. The two months is for the current season only.

One of the problems with the way the rulebook is updated is the FIE sends out rule changes. For example, in 2004 they changed some of the rule numbers, but the USFA didn’t catch those. Now when those rules are changed; the changes are indicated by rule number. So those rules will never get updated in the future.

I am waiting for the new rulebook. I am curious how many of the errors will have been fixed. I have almost 6 pages of errors. I gave up on the index. I think the best thing to do on that is to throw it out and start from scratch.

To give Inquartata acknowledgement is galling, but one must do what one must do. That was a good catch.

[HOT Fencing Club]

I am so glad to know it wasn't just me that found the rulebook confusing. X)

[MikeHarm]

I was at a table with a senior director once after a tourney a few years back and he mentioned you could do a permanent ban off of a black card potentially through the USFA if the offense was serious enough.

I've also heard of people getting permanent venue bans before as a side penalty to the black card. An example locally I know of is there there was a tournament where a lady threw her sword after a bad call and it almost hit someone's baby who was in the crowd and got a black card & permanent venue ban out of it from one of the local clubs.

Technically though if a venue 'banned' a fencer/team from competing at their site wouldn't that enable them to nullify all the results if they weren't let into the event and their USFA card was valid?