Weight Training for fencers

[epeelion]

I have been asked to start a discussion thread concerning the recently posted article "Weight Training for the Competitive Fencer". I'd be happy to answer any questions, elaborate, and/or discuss commonly observed training programs/conditioning drills/practices.

[Craig]

Here's the link to the article:

Weight Training for the Competitive Fencer

[Superscribe]

Sweet. Alright I have a question. I've been told that when i'm performing blade drills (parry disengage riposte), the important thing is to get the action right, and then speed will naturally come. The assertion is that by doing somethin over and over again, I'll get faster and faster. Is this true? Can i just do a drill over and over again and get faster? Do i have to make a conscious effort to push myself when doing the action (even if it's not difficult to do) in order to build speed?

[Allen Evans]

Blade drills done slowly build a certain level of proficiency in which the movement in coded very precisely. However, if you want to increase the speed of the motion, it should be done at speed. When just starting out, it makes sense to learn the move at a speed that is below competitive speed. Once the move is understood, however, it makes sense to include a certain number of repetitions at full speed.

This is one of the reasons why drilling with partners can be beneficial. When the drill is well constructed, the fencer in the drill is able to practice the motion with a variety of partners at a variety of speeds, allowing the action to become both more technically proficient and faster.

This is more a function of "motor learning" than "weight lifting".

[epeelion]

Can i just do a drill over and over again and get faster? Do i have to make a conscious effort to push myself when doing the action (even if it's not difficult to do) in order to build speed?

The idea here is to slowly build the correct muscle memory and ensure maximum efficiency an minimum energy expenditure during the action. If you try doing an action fast right away, generally you use way more energy than you should and tense up way too much. Practicing it slowly initially until you're comfortable with it and you're sure the technique is correct is absolutely valid. That said, of course you won't get faster by continuing to do it at the same speed. You have to gradually increase the speed to what it would be at competition level. When to increase the seed and by how much is a decision your coach should be making.

[axfv]

I followed the Starting Strength program for a month and a half this summer and it advised lifts be done at 5 reps. The argument was that this rep range promotes athletic strength, as opposed to aesthetic hypertrophy of the 10+ rep programs:



If this is correct, why does almost everyone advise beginners to exercise in the 10-rep range?

Also, how often do you advise strength training during regular fencing practice (club-level practices done 3-4 times a week for 3 hours each, I don't have any health problems and in pretty decent shape). What adjustments should I make before tournaments? I remember reading something about decreased power output during strength training, but that it only takes a couple of days off for the power output to return to optimal levels. Should we be skipping strength for a few days before an important event, or is that also a myth?

[Foil.Leicester]

I've got a question for you, and one I've been puzzling over for a while. What do you think is a good rotation for a weight training fencer?

For example, my brother is pretty big on body-building which means he does an enormous amount of heavy weight training, working each part of his body intensely each day (arm day, shoulder day etc etc).

What sort of rotation do you suggest day to day? Is a similar rotation of focussing on different areas of the body worth doing, or is it worth doing different types of training each day, strength one day, cardio another, power a third?

Edit: And perhaps a further question, how would you change your rotation depending on the time of the year, say beginning of the season, end of the season, beginning of off-season, end of off-season?

[epeelion]

If this is correct, why does almost everyone advise beginners to exercise in the 10-rep range?

A few reasons. 10+ range is indeed hypertrophic (at least to a degree), but most beginners need that sort of basic training
and strength. I actually will be writing another article shortly on periodization of training, and volume goes way down in the more advanced stages of training. It's important to build athletic strength when you're closer to competition, but basic strength training, some hypertrophy, and local muscular endurance are fine for the ofseason or for beginners with a low base level of strength.

Also, how often do you advise strength training during regular fencing practice (club-level practices done 3-4 times a week for 3 hours each, I don't have any health problems and in pretty decent shape). What adjustments should I make before tournaments?

I generally lift three times a week, same with cardio. It all depends on your schedule. See below for answer to your second question here.

What sort of rotation do you suggest day to day? Is a similar rotation of focussing on different areas of the body worth doing, or is it worth doing different types of training each day, strength one day, cardio another, power a third?

Fencers should do the opposite of bodybuilders.

In all seriousness, that type of very localized specific training is great for hypertrophy and terrible for speed and coordination. I generally divide each of my three weightlifting days into general movements (hip dominant, knee dominant, push, pull, jump, etc.), and since I do it three days a week, and generally do all of these each lifting session. How I schedule my cardio depends on how tired I am and my schedule (I am in school full time, after all).

[epeelion]

A GENERAL NOTE:

My next article focuses on periodization of training, how to vary your training based on where you are in the season, etc. So stay tuned for answers to any questions I didn't answer directly here.

[RITFencing]

Yeah, one question that's been large in my mind for the past few months... any suggestions on exercise for those of us with miniscal damage?

[Dev]

Seconded. Torn lateral, back of the left knee, twice resected surgically. Any knee-safe exercise suggestions? I mean, I still do squats, just not all the way down.

[epeelion]

Ouch guys, tough question. The meniscus is a very important structure for stability and absorption of forces. What kind of exercise?

To be honest, as much as I hate ellipticals they may be a good bet. Biking may or may not hurt, depending on whether the knee is totally clean now or not.

Squats you can do, I would simply ensure that the knee never travels in front of the toes, which is a pretty standard way of keeping the exercise knee-safe. The problem is that any exercises that require rapid absorption and redistribution of forces (like power exercises and plyometrics) are going to be tough. Like I said before, the best way to keep your knee safe is to keep your center of mass back and to avoid excessive anterior or posterior forces. Work a lot on stability exercises, just to sure you have enough support from the other structures in and around the knee. Try doing simple Medicine Ball exercises in a quarter squat position, for instance, or some MB tosses. If it's the back knee, you may still be able to get away with lunges as an exercise for the front knee, and back lunges may not hurt the affected knee too much either. You basically have to modify any normal exercise to avoid pain and instability. As long as it's been operated on successfully and you're pretty far post-op, it's really the pain that will limit you.

[RITFencing]

Both knees for me, no operation yet and I want to try and keep it that way as much as possible. I need to improve overall strength first and then explosive power. Thanks for the ideas about stability; I've done a lot of core strength, balance and body awareness work and I can add more stability and balance to that. I've got some ideas for stuff to do, would you mind having a chat about it in Cincinatti (if you're going to be there?) I'll gladly pay you for your time.

[Foil.Leicester]

A good friend of mine got serious meniscus damage in his back leg, and has since just about recovered. He was doing a lot of biking, some squats with no weight and balance stuff like on a wobble board or exercise ball.

Once his knees started to get better he started moving onto things like a rowing machine and is now finally back upto running and normal training. His whole rehabilitation from injury to now took about 2 and a half years.

[epeelion]

I've got some ideas for stuff to do, would you mind having a chat about it in Cincinatti (if you're going to be there?)

Should be there, would be happy to chat!

As Foil.Leicester said, it's a long process, and you start with body eight and stability exercises. Eventually, you can move onto full exercise, but it may very well hurt.

Sean, if you don't mind my asking, how do you know it's a meniscus problem? Did they do any exploratory surgery?

[Dev]

Should be there, would be happy to chat!

As Foil.Leicester said, it's a long process, and you start with body eight and stability exercises. Eventually, you can move onto full exercise, but it may very well hurt.

Sean, if you don't mind my asking, how do you know it's a meniscus problem? Did they do any exploratory surgery?

Lorenzo,

I'd like to be there for that chat as well. I'll probably be hanging around Sean in Cincy anyway.

-Dev

[Inquartata]

After my surgery for lateral meniscus tears the physical therapist had me doing sitting leg presses on a machine by the second session, gradually increasing the weight up to 70 lbs for the one leg and 140 lbs. for both legs, two sets. I suspect that I would not be exceeding 140 lbs. with an unweighted squat, and since I'm fencing wearing full gear in a sort of squatting position without pain anyway I suspect that some degree of strength training is not out of the question or the doctor would have told me never to fence again...

[RITFencing]

No surgery done, but the pain is consistent with meniscal damage, Peter Harmer said that it sounded a lot like the meniscus was the problem, and taping it up to support the meniscus (lifting the patella off of it) gave me a lot of relief.

[Superscribe]

In a similar vein, i'm interested in preventing knee injury.

One of my coaches has us get down in a squat, and then bounce up and down. We just bounce perhaps half an inch off the ground. Our squat is more of a resting squat, like you'd see gargoyles statues, or the classic spiderman-on-a-balcony stance. We bounce up and down on our toes (sometimes on our heels if we're really tired) back and forth, left and right, etc for about 30sec-1min at a time.

Other then the incredible burning sensation, I haven't noticed too many problems or other pains with my joints, but i'm a little concerned about this exercise.

Can you give an honest pro/con breakdown of this exercise? What is this type of exercise trying to accomplish? How bad is it for my knees? Is it acceptable for short durations?

Thanks for your time and consideration

[Cookeit]

Uhh, I am confused with the information Axfv presented.

10 reps for hypertrophy?

I thought if you wanted to get bigger you do low reps, like 4-6, not 10.
If you are working on endurance you do like 10-12...