What success looks like

[K O'N]

In discussions of interesting the public in fencing, I'm told sometimes that fencing has a reputation for 'elitism', or for being an 'elite sport'. Ok. Other people tell me the equipment is very expensive, or that not enough people fence, or that the rules are hard to understand, or that the scoring is not clear, or that the language used is not easy for non-fencers to understand. This is a list of things fencers tell me, you understand. Non fencers ask me why fencing isn't on tv.

So here, here's something:

http://littleac.com/LITTLE_AMERICAS_CUP-WELCOME.html

As elitist as fencing, I would say, whatever that means. More expensive equipment, much of it designed and built by the sailors, these aren't highly sponsored teams. Yet. They may be next time. Many fewer people race C cats than fence. I suppose classes of boat racing are a bit like different weapons in fencing. Not exactly, but a bit. The rules are very hard for non sailors to understand, or even for sailors in complicated situations. Something called "right of way" actually. Very technical language.

But they're going to get a ton of coverage. Livecasting races, tons of mainstream media coverage. This is success at the ground level. The next time this comes around it's a very good bet it will be huge, sponsors all over the place, more boats, lots more coverage. This is a coming out party. The whole class almost died off a few years ago, but it's back now and it's about to blow up.

So what can we steal from this? The sailing version of fencing.net is arguably sailing anarchy. They have a guy there on site at the race with cameras, GPS on the boats, live broadcasting the races, goodness knows what. US Sailing isn't doing it, the web site is doing it.

So, problem one is no doubt a lack of sponsorship on the same level. Perhaps fencing is too cheap, rather than too expensive. If we had people spending what some idiots spend on keelboat racing I guess we could get sponsors too.

It's not excitement; if you want excitement in a movie, you put in a sword fight, not a boat race.

It's not terminology; I've been trolling through the non sailing media about this all day (no races, winds to 30 knots today). They use all sorts of actual sailing terms when talking to the media. It's crazy. No one is talking baby talk, substituting "BLOCK" for "parry", they actually use the words the sport uses, they talk about it like it's a sport.

It's not that this is easier to understand than fencing. Fencing is two people trying to hit each other with sticks. Very intuitive. This is match racing, for goodness sake. Go try to explain to someone what a 'dialup' before the start is, and why both boats are going the wrong way! It's crazy, that's not it.

They have leveraged, I think, the Little AC as the sexy, coolest thing in sailing, and they're working that.

What's the sexy, coolest thing in fencing? How could we do something like this?

K O'N

[Inquartata]

Step 1: Start with lots of money.

Step 2: Scarcely matters; see Step 1.

[Marre]

my 2 cents: I just think no one has really asked for sponsors..you see the big events with Tissot als main sponsor, but local events...perhaps we should just do that ? Get some sponsors, and they will want media coverage, so they will advertise for that too..

I guess you will get the ball rolling after that..

[K O'N]

Step 1: Start with lots of money.

Step 2: Scarcely matters; see Step 1.

They don't have lots of money, even compared with fencing. Compare them with other classes of sailing and it's a laughable thought.

So why are they getting all the press? Why is this a mainstream story, when no other sailing championship is?

K O'N

[K O'N]

my 2 cents: I just think no one has really asked for sponsors..you see the big events with Tissot als main sponsor, but local events...perhaps we should just do that ? Get some sponsors, and they will want media coverage, so they will advertise for that too..

I guess you will get the ball rolling after that..

I don't want to sound like I think I have all the answers, but I don't think you get sponsors and then try to figure out how to get some media coverage. You get media coverage, and that makes you attractive to sponsors.

K O'N

[Inquartata]

They don't have lots of money, even compared with fencing. Compare them with other classes off sailing and it's a laughable thought.

Heh. This is a bit like "A billion here and a billion there, and pretty soon you're talking real money."

A mere millionaire probably "Doesn't have lots of money" if you "compare them with other classes of wealthy people". I guess it all depends on your frame of reference.

[wakeup]

The coolest thing about fencing? Walking over to the rec center on a weeknight, watching my not-quite-13 yo and some 40+ (or 60+) yo spend 3 minutes trying to impale each other, and then seeing them both take off their masks to reveal big-ass grins.

To hell with media coverage. Work on grassroots. It's rare (and delightful) to see people of dramatically different ages and backgrounds playing together. Sell that.

[K O'N]

Heh. This is a bit like "A billion here and a billion there, and pretty soon you're talking real money."

A mere millionaire probably "Doesn't have lots of money" if you "compare them with other classes of wealthy people". I guess it all depends on your frame of reference.

It does. My points here are several, and perhaps have been jumbled, since I slapped out my original post while tired and on my way to bed. Allow me to restate:

This is not the richest class in sailing, by a long shot. So money is not why they are beating other sailing events, at least, to the publicity.

The level of money is not orders of magnitude beyond what people spend in fencing. The Invictus team from the UK is not a lot more sponsored than a well financed fencing kid. They spend money on carbon, we spend money on lessons. They send eight people to the US to race once in two years, we send two people, a kid and a coach, to Europe to fence a dozen times in two years. It's not even, but it's not so far out as to have the amount of money explain it away.

Fencing not having an event like this is not the fault of the USFA. US Sailing is at least as disfunctional as the USFA. Sailing is a lot more local-club reliant than we are; I hear fencers all the time say that the USFA should do this or that. I say it myself. Sailors think of US Sailing as a way to pick the Olympic team. The nominal objectives are about the same as the USFA, but the interactions with non elite athletes is very different. This is one of the things that came to mind when we were bouncing around the idea of an elite and a non elite branch of the USFA.

There's no doubt C class cats are cool. Lots of things are cool. Battle Mountain HPV record attempts are cool. Landsailing is cool. WSSRC speed sailing is cool. The question I'm asking is, how do things like the C class cats jump up to the next level, and get mainstream coverage? Or, pick something else. How did roller derby go from a joke sport to something that, inexplicably, is cool and gets lots of mainstream coverage?

I'm not trying to be Socratic here. I really don't know. I rather think it has something to do with attractive personal narrative, Steve Clark trying to win back the LAC, with the idea of a 'clash of champions', all the Olympic medals and AC skill sailors on the LAC boats, a little bit of an underdog story, these guys are *not* rich, this is not millionaires in Farr 40s, a 'perfect storm' of superlatives, the C class cats are the fastest boats in the world. Ok, they're not, maybe the foiling Moths are faster, maybe BMW/O is faster in a line, who knows.

It's just interesting to try to deconstruct what the difference is between stuff that's cool and obscure, and stuff that's cool and suddenly trendy.

K O'N

[K O'N]

The coolest thing about fencing? Walking over to the rec center on a weeknight, watching my not-quite-13 yo and some 40+ (or 60+) yo spend 3 minutes trying to impale each other, and then seeing them both take off their masks to reveal big-ass grins.

To hell with media coverage. Work on grassroots. It's rare (and delightful) to see people of dramatically different ages and backgrounds playing together. Sell that.

I totally agree.

And I sometimes wonder if popularity is all it's cracked up to be. I used to have a teammate, very smart guy, who would say, "I want fencing to be popular enough so I have people to fence. Beyond that I don't really care. If it got really popular it would attract good athletes, and then it wouldn't be fun anymore." He may have had a point.

Glad you're having fun,

K O'N

[Hauptman]

It's not that this is easier to understand than fencing. Fencing is two people trying to hit each other with sticks. Very intuitive. This is match racing, for goodness sake. Go try to explain to someone what a 'dialup' before the start is, and why both boats are going the wrong way! It's crazy, that's not it.



K O'N

I disagree. Fencing has steadily declined as a spectator sport even as it has grown in participation. I believe this is because as the athleticism of the fencers has increased, along with the addition of electronic scoring, fencing has become literally too fast for the average person to follow.

Hell, even experienced fencers can have a hard time following the action of a top level bout. So while "two people trying to hit each other with sticks" can be "Very intuitive", modern fencing is not easy to follow, and ROW is anything but intuitive. Slow motion instant replay and good commentary has definitely improved this, but we have a long way to go.

[Gav]

I disagree. Fencing has steadily declined as a spectator sport even as it has grown in participation. I believe this is because as the athleticism of the fencers has increased, along with the addition of electronic scoring, fencing has become literally too fast for the average person to follow.

I've done some small testing of this with non-fencing friends and it's not true. And also impartial football (soccer) fans in a pub. They had no trouble following fencing at all. They even got the general idea. In fact they liked Sabre most of all because it is so quick and spectacular (certainly at very high levels).

Which surprised me.

Hell, even experienced fencers can have a hard time following the action of a top level bout. So while "two people trying to hit each other with sticks" can be "Very intuitive", modern fencing is not easy to follow, and ROW is anything but intuitive. Slow motion instant replay and good commentary has definitely improved this, but we have a long way to go.

Disagreement in sport is actually what drives it. Because it generates conflict. Watch any sport and what do you see? Discussion and argument over every decision and action. Fencing is no different. My pet theory is that the problem with fencing is one of expectation. It's the one common thing I've gotten out of demonstrations to non-fencers. They expect Errol Flynn, or Darth Vader, but what they get is Eric Roberts.

Finding a way to address this is part of the challenge of popularising the sport. Go to a country where fencing is respected and you will find that people's perception and expectation of the sport is actually fine. People will watch it.

I don't have a solution to offer, but I hope there is someone is out there who does.

[rudd]

I disagree. Fencing has steadily declined as a spectator sport even as it has grown in participation.

Do we have any data to support this. There seems to be a belief that at some glorious time in the past every fencing competition drew thousands of eager spectators. The CIP gets about 7000 spectators. I doubt many competition in the past drew more that that.

Show someone older fencing footage and I doubt they would find it any easier to follow. I also believe that the jury of four was every bit as confusing as the current electric scoring system.

Olde Stylee foil.

What happened there?

It was FOTR's attack because he extended his arm first. You missed that, well take it from me he did. One Judge say it was on and the other one says it was off target. Oh, the target's the torso, back and front. The President, the chap in the middle, get one and half votes and he says it was off target as well. So the attack is off target. FOTR thinks it was on target and that's why he's screaming.

Nu Skool foil.

What happened there?

It was FOTR's attack because he extended his arm first. Oh you missed that, see it there on the slo mo replay. There was a white light so his hit arrived off target. The target is the silvery part. The referee says the attack was off target. Oh that's the hand signal for off target. FOTR is upset and that's why he's screaming.

I agree with Gav that reality versus perception is a big issue. A co worker watched the sabre in the Olympic. His comments, "I wanted to see a duel."
There is also a lack of public knowledge. "The US has a fencing team?!" and "Yeah I know fencing it's the one with horses and knights."

Fencing unlike golf, sailing and tennis is not an aspirational sport. It's not associated with the life style of the rich and the country club set. These sports also have a an associated social aspect.

I thing fencing is making big strides. Tim Morehouse's work is fantastic. Coverage by Universal Sport was a big deal. Coverage for the last Olympics was good. FIEVideo on Youtube is great as well. I think as we see the breakdown between online and TV programming we'll have more options for niche sports fan which may provide more sponsorship option. We just need to be realistic in our expectations.

[Hauptman]

Do we have any data to support this. There seems to be a belief that at some glorious time in the past every fencing competition drew thousands of eager spectators. The CIP gets about 7000 spectators. I doubt many competition in the past drew more that that.

I wasn't claiming anything of the sort that you're describing. And if I have no data to support my theory then neither do you. There are records of top fencers at exhibitions and invitational tournaments that drew large crowds. And world population was much smaller back then. How many fencing galas are held these days?

My experience is that fencing spectators these days are generally fencers, family and friends of fencers, wannabe swashbucklers, and/or people who couldn't get tickets to the Olympic events that they really wanted to see.

My experience has been different from Gav's in how non-fencers respond to watching fencing. But then if they really had no trouble following the action then why don't they enjoy watching it? I'm assuming they don't really enjoy it because there doesn't seem to be any demand to watch some more.

So fencing is not an attractive spectator sport, but it has nothing to do with whether people can follow the action or understand it? You say that people will watch it, but do they? Can we get any statistics on TV ratings for fencing in Italy? France?

People watch sports for several reasons; they participate themselves, they simply enjoy the aesthetics, or for social reasons.

Participation is big for some sports otherwise how many people would watch golf or bowling on TV? But fencing will never have huge numbers in that regard.

Team sports identification is huge, but fencing in the U.S. is mainly an individual sport. I've said many times that we should push for more team events to grow interest here since we don't have the various country rivalries that they have in Europe. People will cheer for their home team even they have no clue as to what they are watching.

[Gav]

My experience has been different from Gav's in how non-fencers respond to watching fencing. But then if they really had no trouble following the action then why don't they enjoy watching it? I'm assuming they don't really enjoy it because there doesn't seem to be any demand to watch some more.

Perhaps it's cultural? Perhaps we in the UK are more open minded? Perhaps I was just lucky? Who knows. It was hardly scientific and I do know fencers who can't stand watching the sport.

I suspect that your problems with the sport have been what I have already outlined (perception and expectation) and not an innate problem with the rules. Even if it was the rules, do we dumb the sport down just to get some TV coverage? I think not. We have a tendency to think that fencing is somehow different; that it's special but I challenge this. Fencing is just a sport like any other.

It does however come with a cultural cachet. And I blame the movie industry (in the main) for romanticising swordplay.

And I question your assertion in any case. If you are saying that there is no appetite for more fencing then I send your own comment back to you. Please supply some stats that say so. We can't have it both ways.

[Hauptman]

Perhaps it's cultural? Perhaps we in the UK are more open minded? Perhaps I was just lucky? Who knows. It was hardly scientific and I do know fencers who can't stand watching the sport.

I suspect that your problems with the sport have been what I have already outlined (perception and expectation) and not an innate problem with the rules. Even if it was the rules, do we dumb the sport down just to get some TV coverage? I think not. We have a tendency to think that fencing is somehow different; that it's special but I challenge this. Fencing is just a sport like any other.

It does however come with a cultural cachet. And I blame the movie industry (in the main) for romanticising swordplay.

And I question your assertion in any case. If you are saying that there is no appetite for more fencing then I send your own comment back to you. Please supply some stats that say so. We can't have it both ways.

I agree that a large portion is cultural. My feeling is that in the U.S. fencing is somewhat associated with European aristocracy, and hence the "elitist" connotation. Since fencing has never gotten much play in the U.S. I don't have any stats to refer to; that's why I'm hoping that someone out there might have TV stats from a more fencing friendly country to give us some perspective.

I'm not attempting to state fact either; just my theories based on limited references.

Actually, I think we're agreeing more than not. I'm not suggesting that a lack of spectator understanding means we should dumb down the sport. I think we just need to accept the fact that fencing does not have the characteristics necessary to make it a popular spectator sport.

Although I still think that promoting team events could provide a boost to popular interest and sponsorship.

[Philistine]

I disagree. Fencing has steadily declined as a spectator sport even as it has grown in participation. {snip}

What do you mean by "has steadily declined." AIUI, fencing was somewhat popular as a spectator sport ~ 100 years ago, and very rapidly dropped off. For all intents and purposes, it has not been a "spectator sport" at all during the modern period--certainly when I started fencing ~25 years ago, there were not more spectators than there are now--fewer probably.

--Philistine

[keith]

I don't want to sound like I think I have all the answers, but I don't think you get sponsors and then try to figure out how to get some media coverage. You get media coverage, and that makes you attractive to sponsors.

K O'N

The other approach is to work out what you have, in terms of a participating demographic, and sell that to sponsors. Media coverage is not necessarily the be all and end all. If you are working on the basis that you need media coverage to get sponsors and the media is only interested in a sponsored sport (so it can take its cut of funds) then you run the risk of getting dizzy.

[Inquartata]

Or maybe, Gav, your results were influenced by the fact that you asked friends. Did you try asking some strangers? ( I'm not clear on whether the "football fans" were people you know or not. )

[Gav]

Or maybe, Gav, your results were influenced by the fact that you asked friends. Did you try asking some strangers? ( I'm not clear on whether the "football fans" were people you know or not. )

Did you miss the bit where I mentioned randoms in the pub?

I have actually written extensively on this topic in the past too.

[Inquartata]

You said "impartial football fans in a pub". That does not specify "strangers". Which is why I asked.