Lame care

[StuOS]

I recently was asked by my son's club to see if I could restore/clean an
eight-year-old foil lame with a huge dead spot on the chest. They gave me a
lame they thought was hopeless for my experiments. To my surprise and delight,
I was able to restore the thing.

I used a weak solution of rust remover and amonia, dipping the lame and gently
moving it up and down in the solution for about 2 minutes. I then left it to
dry in the Colorado air, which dries things pretty quickly, since humidity here
is pretty near zero, most days.

To my suprise and delight, the lame is now fully functional.

Are there any other techniques others might know about to restore/clean lames?

Thanks

Stuart O'Steen
Boulder, Colorado

[David Neevel]

What you did is pretty much the standard approach that will work if the problem is
build-up of sweat salts (most use ammonia and a mild detergent like Ivory Snow).
It's best to wash them with some regularity to prevent salts from building up in
the first place.

As a caveat, beware that "fully functional" is not the same a "competition
legitimate". The allowed limit for resistance in lames is 5 ohms, maximum. As a
practical matter, lames can have resistance of 250 Ohms or more and still register
valid touches assuming everything else is in good working order (the specs for the
scoring apparatus are that a contact of less than 250 Ohms for 5 ms, or of up to
500 Ohms for 500 ms). So, you want to test lames with an ohmmeter, to save yourself
being caught short when that perfectly functional lame fails at a competition
because it's showing 30 ohms resistance.

For cases where a section is dead due to the metal strands being broken or heavily
corroded, no amount of cleaning will restore the spot. If it's a localized spot on
an otherwise good lame, a patch of lame fabric can be sewn on over it-- no special
thread or technique needed, just make the patch larger than the dead area and fold
over the edges of the patch to make a good electrical contact. For a lame with many
dead spots or a very large area gone (such as the whole front panel), it's probably
best to cannibalise it for material to patch other lames.


-Dave

StuOS wrote:

> I recently was asked by my son's club to see if I could restore/clean an
> eight-year-old foil lame with a huge dead spot on the chest. They gave me a
> lame they thought was hopeless for my experiments. To my surprise and delight,
> I was able to restore the thing.
>
> I used a weak solution of rust remover and amonia, dipping the lame and gently
> moving it up and down in the solution for about 2 minutes. I then left it to
> dry in the Colorado air, which dries things pretty quickly, since humidity here
> is pretty near zero, most days.
>
> To my suprise and delight, the lame is now fully functional.
>
> Are there any other techniques others might know about to restore/clean lames?
>
> Thanks
>
> Stuart O'Steen
> Boulder, Colorado

[CLHagenMN]

In article <20021130190107.01527.00000111@mb-cr.aol.com>, stuos@aol.com (StuOS)
writes:

>
>I used a weak solution of rust remover and amonia, dipping the lame and
>gently
>moving it up and down in the solution for about 2 minutes. I then left it to
>dry in the Colorado air, which dries things pretty quickly, since humidity
>here
>is pretty near zero, most days.
>
>To my suprise and delight, the lame is now fully functional.
>
>Are there any other techniques others might know about to restore/clean
>lames?

Stu'! Hello!
Good job on the lamé!
Sometimes that works, sometimes it doesn't!
Foil fencers tend to be a little impatient, and give up on such things a little
too quickly;
Hats off to you if it has passed Armourer's inspection!
Otherwise, don't get your hopes up!
Often lamés that 'work' 100% do not; Although they function quite well for club
use, either way, thus preserving the new lamé for tournament use.

Occaisionally, a little patchwork can get them through inspections for a good
while longer, as well.

And, Yes, there are discussion about many equipment-related topics that recycle
on a 12-18 basis;
The 3 fencing F.A.Q.'s are also posted in this Newgroup about every 6 months or
so, and they can be quite informative, and give you a lot of fairly reliable
technical info' on 'static' topics in a short time. (obviously, it's not the
place to go for more changeable info' on, for example, recent changes in
fencing rules, and USFA policy changes...)

Welcome to fencing!

Hope you enjoy it.

[Tim Loomis]

stuos@aol.com (StuOS) wrote in message news:<20021130190107.01527.00000111@mb-cr.aol.com>...
> I recently was asked by my son's club to see if I could restore/clean an
> eight-year-old foil lame with a huge dead spot on the chest. They gave me a
> lame they thought was hopeless for my experiments. To my surprise and delight,
> I was able to restore the thing.
>
> I used a weak solution of rust remover and amonia, dipping the lame and gently
> moving it up and down in the solution for about 2 minutes. I then left it to
> dry in the Colorado air, which dries things pretty quickly, since humidity here
> is pretty near zero, most days.
>
> To my suprise and delight, the lame is now fully functional.
>
> Are there any other techniques others might know about to restore/clean lames?
>
> Thanks
>
> Stuart O'Steen
> Boulder, Colorado


Normally I use 1/2 capful of woolite and 1/2 capfull of amonia in cold
water and risen in cold and hang up to drip dry

Tim

[Stuart O'Steen]

Thanks. I appreciate your response.

I think I need to clarify a few things that seemed superfluous in my first
post, but probably weren't.

First, this lame had been cleaned repeatedly using only ammonia and
detergent, with no effect. I first used only an ammonia solution, also with
no effect (I have a background in the sciences, so I always have to repeat
experiments. It drives my wife crazy.). Then, I tried a rust remover
(specifically, a product called "CLR" which claims to remove both rust and
calcium deposits). After treatment with this product, the lame was
subjected to an ohmmeter. The fencing coach said that it was perfectly "all
right, now" to my wife (I wasn't there). I don't know what sort of
resistance it was showing.

Thanks so much for telling me about the competition test. I didn't know
that. This lame will never be used for competition (other than, perhaps,
local club competitions) because it has the name of the donor stencilled on
the back. The donor has long since moved on.

I've read the FAQ, and knew the standard treatment for lames. The reason I
posted this is because using a rust remover might be helpful to some,
especially those who own clubs and might spare themselves the expense of
cannabalizing lames that might still be useful, replacing them with new
ones.

At our club, controlling expense is very important. I realize some larger
clubs may find the expense of lames to be a pittance. Wish we had that
luxury.

Thanks again for the response.

Stuart O'Steen
Boulder, Colorado

"David Neevel" <neevel@execpc.com> wrote in message
news:3de97a94$0$1404$272ea4a1@news.execpc.com...
> What you did is pretty much the standard approach that will work if the
problem is
> build-up of sweat salts (most use ammonia and a mild detergent like Ivory
Snow).
> It's best to wash them with some regularity to prevent salts from building
up in
> the first place.
>
> As a caveat, beware that "fully functional" is not the same a "competition
> legitimate". The allowed limit for resistance in lames is 5 ohms, maximum.
As a
> practical matter, lames can have resistance of 250 Ohms or more and still
register
> valid touches assuming everything else is in good working order (the specs
for the
> scoring apparatus are that a contact of less than 250 Ohms for 5 ms, or of
up to
> 500 Ohms for 500 ms). So, you want to test lames with an ohmmeter, to save
yourself
> being caught short when that perfectly functional lame fails at a
competition
> because it's showing 30 ohms resistance.
>
> For cases where a section is dead due to the metal strands being broken or
heavily
> corroded, no amount of cleaning will restore the spot. If it's a localized
spot on
> an otherwise good lame, a patch of lame fabric can be sewn on over it-- no
special
> thread or technique needed, just make the patch larger than the dead area
and fold
> over the edges of the patch to make a good electrical contact. For a lame
with many
> dead spots or a very large area gone (such as the whole front panel), it's
probably
> best to cannibalise it for material to patch other lames.
>
>
> -Dave
>
> StuOS wrote:
>
> > I recently was asked by my son's club to see if I could restore/clean an
> > eight-year-old foil lame with a huge dead spot on the chest. They gave
me a
> > lame they thought was hopeless for my experiments. To my surprise and
delight,
> > I was able to restore the thing.
> >
> > I used a weak solution of rust remover and amonia, dipping the lame and
gently
> > moving it up and down in the solution for about 2 minutes. I then left
it to
> > dry in the Colorado air, which dries things pretty quickly, since
humidity here
> > is pretty near zero, most days.
> >
> > To my suprise and delight, the lame is now fully functional.
> >
> > Are there any other techniques others might know about to restore/clean
lames?
> >
> > Thanks
> >
> > Stuart O'Steen
> > Boulder, Colorado
>
>

[Fencerbill]

In article <20021130190107.01527.00000111@mb-cr.aol.com>, stuos@aol.com (StuOS)
writes:

>
>I recently was asked by my son's club to see if I could restore/clean an
>eight-year-old foil lame with a huge dead spot on the chest. They gave me a
>lame they thought was hopeless for my experiments. To my surprise and
>delight,
>I was able to restore the thing.
>
>I used a weak solution of rust remover and amonia, dipping the lame and
>gently
>moving it up and down in the solution for about 2 minutes. I then left it to
>dry in the Colorado air, which dries things pretty quickly, since humidity
>here
>is pretty near zero, most days.
>
>To my suprise and delight, the lame is now fully functional.
>
>Are there any other techniques others might know about to restore/clean
>lames?
>

I expect that the Lame you were working on had copper type conductors. Chemical
cleaning does work for them.

Most of the recently sold Lames have stainless conductors instead of the older
copper conductors. The failure mechanism for the stainless Lames is quite often
breakage of the conductors, completely different from the common problem of
corrosion that affected the older copper conductor Lames. It is common for the
stainless Lames to fail at folds, typical of Allstar and Uhlmann Lames where
the lining shrinks more than the Lame fabric. Thr fronts of Foil Lames will
fade in time just from all of the hits. These will start as small dead spots
which will grow in time as the damage continues to accumulate. These can be
patched with areas of new, or reclaimed, Lame fabric. This is not a permanent
solution as the dead areas will "grow" out from under the patch. I have had
good luck applying new Lame fabric to the complete front. From the zipper to
the underarm seam and from the collar to the croissard strap. The labor
involved is not that much more than for a medium sized patch and you can almost
double the life of the Lame. It costs about 35% of the price of a new Lame and
you get an estimated 80% increase in use.

The pattern for Sabre Lames is quite different from Foil Lames, where the most
wear is on the weapon arm side from the belt to the chest. For Sabre, the dead
areas will be where the material creases (armpits, elbows, and lower weapon arm
sleeve) as well as somewhat random areas across the upper body. I cannot in
good conscience recommend repairs for Sabre Lames similar to the above
recommended repair for Foil Lames, because you have to cover, or replace, the
sleeves and cover the upper body.

I have had some luck repairing small dead spots on my own Sabre Lame by using
the silver paint (GC brand) they sell in electronic stores to repair printed
circuits, although it is also sold by Allstar and Uhlmann for the same purpose.

A new candidate for repairing small dead spots is the conductive thread which
has been discussed in this news group. I have bought some but have yet to use
it. Will let you know how it works after I try it.

I will also try the CLR on some copper conductor Lames.

Bill Hall

[StuOS]

Thank you for the info. That was quite helpful.

A question: Wouldn't copper thread be either copper colored or greenish (from
oxidation)? These threads are silver, so I simply assumed they were probably
stainless steel.

I'm excited about the conductive thread. Is this a fencing product, or can it
be found elsewhere? Theoretically, conductive thread should take care of the
issue and extend lame life quite a while.

Thanks again.

Stuart O'Steen
Boulder, Colorado

[Peter Harrison]

My lame is nickel coated copper from Blue Gauntlet. It corrodes green.

I was able to resurrect my old lame for practice with the conductive thread.
See http://members.shaw.ca/ubik/thread/index.html for info.

"StuOS" <stuos@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20021202115515.03386.00000183@mb-cs.aol.com...
> Thank you for the info. That was quite helpful.
>
> A question: Wouldn't copper thread be either copper colored or greenish
(from
> oxidation)? These threads are silver, so I simply assumed they were
probably
> stainless steel.
>
> I'm excited about the conductive thread. Is this a fencing product, or
can it
> be found elsewhere? Theoretically, conductive thread should take care of
the
> issue and extend lame life quite a while.
>
> Thanks again.
>
> Stuart O'Steen
> Boulder, Colorado

[Robert Smith]

Conductive thread, that's me.

A quick update for anyone who cares. We now have around a dozen lames
that have been brought back from the dead over four months ago now.
They're all functioning just fine. There's some colour change to the
thread on one lame, but it's still just as conductive as it was on day
one. That's forty-eight months of life extension from around a spool
of thread

If you're not intending to use the lame for competition, then this is
a cheap way to bolster conductivity to an acceptable level.

I've sold spools to a number of regulars on this newsgroup, but don't
have much feedback - if anyone wants to comment on their experiences,
publicly or privately, I'd really like to hear.

If you want to know more about the thread, go see
http://members.shaw.ca/ubik/thread/ . I've added a couple of photos,
but not the ones I want - I need someone with a digital camera in the
right place at the right time. The lame in the photos was suffering
from some form of rot, but the thread will keep it going for a few
more months at least, longer if the rot doesn't spread.

Actually, I just noticed you're in Boulder. Would that make you father
of Connor O'Steen? Associate of Aly Rush? Daughter of Bonnie Rush? She
was one of my very first customers! If you can get hold of her, she
can likely tell you everything you need to know about the thread.

Anyway, check out the web site, you'll find pretty much everything you
need to know right there.

Robert Smith

On 02 Dec 2002 16:55:15 GMT, stuos@aol.com (StuOS) wrote:

>Thank you for the info. That was quite helpful.
>
>A question: Wouldn't copper thread be either copper colored or greenish (from
>oxidation)? These threads are silver, so I simply assumed they were probably
>stainless steel.
>
>I'm excited about the conductive thread. Is this a fencing product, or can it
>be found elsewhere? Theoretically, conductive thread should take care of the
>issue and extend lame life quite a while.
>
>Thanks again.
>
>Stuart O'Steen
>Boulder, Colorado

[Peter Harrison]

I have resurrected my old lame with the magic thread (or at least, one of
our club members who can sew did). She had a bit of trouble with her new
computerized sewing machine as the thread is a bit heavy, and it pulled
oddly in a couple of places. She thought her old (heavy duty, or more
likely, less sensitive) machine would have had no trouble. Since doing
this, I have only had one hit where the light did not go off.

My old lame had had a very small dead spot in the middle of the chest, that
had gradually gotten bigger to cover and area perhaps 9 inches across, so I
would say the conductive thread works great!

"Robert Smith" <rob_smith@shaw.ca> wrote in message
news:7egnuu47hbg5qgliqusa2r4usievbmo5or@4ax.com...
> Conductive thread, that's me.
>
> A quick update for anyone who cares. We now have around a dozen lames
> that have been brought back from the dead over four months ago now.
> They're all functioning just fine. There's some colour change to the
> thread on one lame, but it's still just as conductive as it was on day
> one. That's forty-eight months of life extension from around a spool
> of thread
>
> If you're not intending to use the lame for competition, then this is
> a cheap way to bolster conductivity to an acceptable level.
>
> I've sold spools to a number of regulars on this newsgroup, but don't
> have much feedback - if anyone wants to comment on their experiences,
> publicly or privately, I'd really like to hear.
>

[Tim Stang]

Robert,

The thread works great. Two things I found...one never try and break it by
hand...ouch...and two washing the lame before sewing with the helps a lot.
I've managed to restore a few sabre masks with this stuff too.

I'm now hunting for a source of new lame material.

Tim


"Robert Smith" <rob_smith@shaw.ca> wrote in message
news:7egnuu47hbg5qgliqusa2r4usievbmo5or@4ax.com...
> Conductive thread, that's me.
>
> A quick update for anyone who cares. We now have around a dozen lames
> that have been brought back from the dead over four months ago now.
> They're all functioning just fine. There's some colour change to the
> thread on one lame, but it's still just as conductive as it was on day
> one. That's forty-eight months of life extension from around a spool
> of thread
>
> If you're not intending to use the lame for competition, then this is
> a cheap way to bolster conductivity to an acceptable level.
>
> I've sold spools to a number of regulars on this newsgroup, but don't
> have much feedback - if anyone wants to comment on their experiences,
> publicly or privately, I'd really like to hear.
>
> If you want to know more about the thread, go see
> http://members.shaw.ca/ubik/thread/ . I've added a couple of photos,
> but not the ones I want - I need someone with a digital camera in the
> right place at the right time. The lame in the photos was suffering
> from some form of rot, but the thread will keep it going for a few
> more months at least, longer if the rot doesn't spread.
>
> Actually, I just noticed you're in Boulder. Would that make you father
> of Connor O'Steen? Associate of Aly Rush? Daughter of Bonnie Rush? She
> was one of my very first customers! If you can get hold of her, she
> can likely tell you everything you need to know about the thread.
>
> Anyway, check out the web site, you'll find pretty much everything you
> need to know right there.
>
> Robert Smith
>
> On 02 Dec 2002 16:55:15 GMT, stuos@aol.com (StuOS) wrote:
>
> >Thank you for the info. That was quite helpful.
> >
> >A question: Wouldn't copper thread be either copper colored or greenish
(from
> >oxidation)? These threads are silver, so I simply assumed they were
probably
> >stainless steel.
> >
> >I'm excited about the conductive thread. Is this a fencing product, or
can it
> >be found elsewhere? Theoretically, conductive thread should take care of
the
> >issue and extend lame life quite a while.
> >
> >Thanks again.
> >
> >Stuart O'Steen
> >Boulder, Colorado
>

[Robert Smith]

Thanks, Tim. Yah, I tried to snap it by hand too. It's ... quite
painful.

I don't know what advantage there'd be to washing the lame first -
outside of the mitigating the ripeness factor of some of our club
gear... So far, with machine sewing, I have had no problems sewing at
all, once I twigged to the fact that the thread was not going to go
happily through a needle. Actually, I thought that having the thread a
little damp might help there, use a little surface tension to give
those smooth strands some cohesion. Otherwise, even through the
fattest needle, it tends to untwist and bunch.

On lame fabric, I think Jeff Salmon of Infinity lame fame told me
he'll sell the infinity fabric for $50 US per square yard. It's quite
different from regular lame material, but I see no reason it wouldn't
be good for repairing regular lames.

[PLUGMODE]
Got to love that lame, by the way. About 200 hours use so far, and it
seems good as new. I used to sweat a LOT before, could soak the bib
area of a regular lame in three hours. The Infinity's so light I'm
sweating way less and can only manage to dampen the collar.
[/PLUGMODE]

There's an email address on the site at
http://www.infinityelectronics.com/products.html somewhere.

Robert Smith


On Wed, 4 Dec 2002 16:34:02 -0500, "Tim Stang"
<tim.stang@fencing.on.ca> wrote:

>
>Robert,
>
>The thread works great. Two things I found...one never try and break it by
>hand...ouch...and two washing the lame before sewing with the helps a lot.
>I've managed to restore a few sabre masks with this stuff too.
>
>I'm now hunting for a source of new lame material.
>
>Tim
>
>
>"Robert Smith" <rob_smith@shaw.ca> wrote in message
>news:7egnuu47hbg5qgliqusa2r4usievbmo5or@4ax.com.. .
>> Conductive thread, that's me.
>>
>> A quick update for anyone who cares. We now have around a dozen lames
>> that have been brought back from the dead over four months ago now.
>> They're all functioning just fine. There's some colour change to the
>> thread on one lame, but it's still just as conductive as it was on day
>> one. That's forty-eight months of life extension from around a spool
>> of thread
>>
>> If you're not intending to use the lame for competition, then this is
>> a cheap way to bolster conductivity to an acceptable level.
>>
>> I've sold spools to a number of regulars on this newsgroup, but don't
>> have much feedback - if anyone wants to comment on their experiences,
>> publicly or privately, I'd really like to hear.
>>
>> If you want to know more about the thread, go see
>> http://members.shaw.ca/ubik/thread/ . I've added a couple of photos,
>> but not the ones I want - I need someone with a digital camera in the
>> right place at the right time. The lame in the photos was suffering
>> from some form of rot, but the thread will keep it going for a few
>> more months at least, longer if the rot doesn't spread.
>>
>> Actually, I just noticed you're in Boulder. Would that make you father
>> of Connor O'Steen? Associate of Aly Rush? Daughter of Bonnie Rush? She
>> was one of my very first customers! If you can get hold of her, she
>> can likely tell you everything you need to know about the thread.
>>
>> Anyway, check out the web site, you'll find pretty much everything you
>> need to know right there.
>>
>> Robert Smith
>>
>> On 02 Dec 2002 16:55:15 GMT, stuos@aol.com (StuOS) wrote:
>>
>> >Thank you for the info. That was quite helpful.
>> >
>> >A question: Wouldn't copper thread be either copper colored or greenish
>(from
>> >oxidation)? These threads are silver, so I simply assumed they were
>probably
>> >stainless steel.
>> >
>> >I'm excited about the conductive thread. Is this a fencing product, or
>can it
>> >be found elsewhere? Theoretically, conductive thread should take care of
>the
>> >issue and extend lame life quite a while.
>> >
>> >Thanks again.
>> >
>> >Stuart O'Steen
>> >Boulder, Colorado
>>
>

[Tim Stang]

"Robert Smith" <rob_smith@shaw.ca> wrote in message
news:b33uuu879s5ui3ur3l2c0a9pdhbotn2225@4ax.com...
>
> On lame fabric, I think Jeff Salmon of Infinity lame fame told me
> he'll sell the infinity fabric for $50 US per square yard. It's quite
> different from regular lame material, but I see no reason it wouldn't
> be good for repairing regular lames.
>
> [PLUGMODE]
> Got to love that lame, by the way. About 200 hours use so far, and it
> seems good as new. I used to sweat a LOT before, could soak the bib
> area of a regular lame in three hours. The Infinity's so light I'm
> sweating way less and can only manage to dampen the collar.
> [/PLUGMODE]
>

Oh believe me. An Infinity Lame has always been on my xmas list. :-)

I've seen 3-4 year old infinity lames that look pretty much like new. I keep
promising myself that when my current Allstar dies I'll get one. My Allstar
is going on 8 years now...its a little dirty but still under 5 ohms.

BTW, I'll probably be buying more thread after Xmas. Out of the 5 rolls I
bought. I've used 1.5 myself and sold the other 3 to other armourers.

:-)

Tim

[Delia M. Turner]

Robert Smith <rob_smith@shaw.ca> wrote in message news:<b33uuu879s5ui3ur3l2c0a9pdhbotn2225@4ax.com>. ..

> On lame fabric, I think Jeff Salmon of Infinity lame fame told me
> he'll sell the infinity fabric for $50 US per square yard. It's quite
> different from regular lame material, but I see no reason it wouldn't
> be good for repairing regular lames.
>
The Infinity fabric, while it stays conductive no matter how damaged
it gets, frays and snags very easily, and seams rubbing against the
metallic fabric of the regular lame would probably wear it raw. I
love my (second) Infinity lame too but I'm always having repair rips
and opened seams.