Referees are Part of the Game -- They Don't "Cause" Your Kid to Lose

[Conrad]

I ran into the parents of a Y10 youth foilist at summer nationals who were complaining bitterly their son had been eliminated mid-way through DEs due to some bad refereeing. I won't debate the merits of the referee's calls since the salient point is that the parents were convinced (rightly or wrongly) that the referee made bad calls.

On one hand, the referees are for the most part (I won't go into it too far) unpaid volunteers. Without them, your child can't fence in a tournament. So, please treat them with appreciation and respect.

I should have told the parents what I tell my own son. But I didn't and I wish I had. Consider the following:

1. Referees are an integral variable, an intrinsic part of the game, in foil -- just as in many other sports. Accept it. Consider it part of the challenge.

2. If you think you are so good that a referee took your bout, you're not so good. Take a look at the really good foilists. You can probably think of one or two who are so good, no referee can affect the outcome of their game. There are youth foilists who can score 5 single point lights in the first 30 seconds of the encounter while the other fencer hasn't even gotten phsically close enough to land a point.

3. If you can't accept that the referee is an integral part of the bout, if you can't accept that referee calls are part of the challenge, then just get better. Become one of those fencers described above.

When a child can accept that a referee is an intrinsic part of the game, they are more likely to focus on improving their game rather than blaming a ref.

[Stormbringer]

Excellent points!
If only more people would realize this...

[VorpalCat]

As I tease my newer fencers during practice, 'Don't like the referee's calls? Then fence better!'

[mrbiggs]

Complaining Y10 parents who obviously have 0 fencing experience themselves = best part of refereeing fencing



(not actually)

[lauralitz]

Best coaching advise regarding referees from my DD's coach:

"Expect a bad call in every bout so you are ready for it."

This helped her so much. It allowed her to focus on the next point instead of getting caught up in the call. This is hard when you are Y10 and think that every point is yours .

lauralitz

[EldRick]

Yeah, that's it - the refs are the element of randomness that makes the sport more interesting!

[Inquartata]

This is hard when you are Y10 and think that every point is yours .

lauralitz

A phenomenon not restricted to Y10, either.

[wakeup]

Yeah, that's it - the refs are the element of randomness that makes the sport more interesting!

Last night 12 yo epeeist daughter (who had fenced foil at club because no epeeists were about) opined that fencing foil in competition would drive her crazy for precisely this reason. Whereas previously, she thought foilists started out a little crazy (nothing like sabreurs, of course)....

I guess weapons-related chauvinisms start early, LOL!

[TBean]

This idea is often hard for a young fencer to deal with - they still at this age want the world to be fair - and the fact that it is not, or they feel that it is not is difficult for them to cope with.

Also, I have heard parents complain vigorously about calls being "wrong," when in fact the calls are just not what they are used to. Clubs or local refs. very often call things in a certain manner, and that is not how they are interpreted on the national level and beyond.

In foil and saber you must learn to deal with the outside arbiter, and the fencers must be ready to adapt to what that person sees and calls - even if they think it is dead wrong. This is very, very hard for young fencers to do, they lack the capacity to adapt that quickly. The mindset become "but this should work," so they keep doing it. Around 15 the issue works itself out.

[flechewounds]

Lets not forget the number of coaches that cause this problem either (a) to make the kid feel better, (b) make the parents feel better about paying the coach (protecting his/her income), or (c) who are pretty clueless about the way fencing is called, generally.

Refereeing 10 year olds is about as hard as it gets - ask any ref at nationals. Between the parents, the coaches, the tears and the simple fact that many don't yet have the strength to actually successfully complete the action that they're intending... and combine that with fairly unpredictable actions/reactions, it is often a mush and refs are often forced to decide between a well-intentioned, but abysmally-executed action, and an odd, unclear and abysmally-executed reaction.

Still, it can be fun.

[AllStar]

[QUOTE=TBean;886485]This idea is often hard for a young fencer to deal with - they still at this age want the world to be fair - and the fact that it is not, or they feel that it is not is difficult for them to cope with.QUOTE]

That's whats so great about fencing. Life isn't fair and this is a safe environment to learn that lesson. Still, and more to Conrad's point, authority must be respected. Conrad's implying (I think) that the calls were good and the parents were wrong. But it doesn't matter, in referee call based sports, reality is what the referee says it is. Period. And that is a good lesson on authority.

[oldguy]

t.93
It would make a good T-shirt.

[amia]

We should also stop using the clock and let the referee call the time and who scored the point. This will even teach them more about authority and life being unfair.

[Capt. Slo-mo]

In foil and saber you must learn to deal with the outside arbiter, and the fencers must be ready to adapt to what that person sees and calls - even if they think it is dead wrong. This is very, very hard for young fencers to do, they lack the capacity to adapt that quickly. The mindset become "but this should work," so they keep doing it. Around 15 the issue works itself out.

This is a very important lesson for young fencers to learn, especially in sabre, where there are so many simultaneous or seemingly random touches awarded in actions off the en guard line. Beginners get trapped in the "OK, I'll just go faster, and THIS TIME he'll see it!" mode, and before they realize it it, they are rushing so fast all technique goes out the window.

Still, it doesn't take most kids long to realize that in a closely fought bout, one or two questionable calls can skew a match...and they don't like it any more than the parents, coaches or refs do.

[Inquartata]

We should also stop using the clock and let the referee call the time and who scored the point. This will even teach them more about authority and life being unfair.

What's a clock?

[amia]

What's a clock?

I meant the scoring equipment. (please forgive my bad English)

It was just funny how people are rationalizing why bad referee decisions are so good for the sport of fencing while it is simply because automated correct decision technology is still too expensive/inconvenient to use.
It is nice to find the up sides of this but let's not sanctify it as some high value.
And while this is the situation it is obvious that the referee decision should be respected. I understand that in foil tournaments there are much more arguments and shouting and general chaos than epee tournaments because they are more dependent on referee decisions. I've heard that here a foil tournament takes 50% more time than an epee tournament with the same number of participants (although it might be somewhat dependant on the nature of specific fencers).

[SJCFU#2]

What's a clock?

I meant the scoring equipment. (please forgive my bad English)

The problem isn't your command of the English language (which is probably better than that of some regular posters here), it's merely that you missed Inq's little joke. Inquartata is a saber fencer, and saber bouts tend to end so quickly that often enough no one even bothers to keep track of time.

As far as foil tournaments taking longer than epee, my experience has been that often enough it isn't because people are arguing over the referee's calls (you can't argue a referee's judgement calls, only application of the rules, and no one argues rules like epeeist). When inexperienced foilist take longer it's often because they seem to hit everything but target, resulting in the bout constantly having to stop and wait for the scoring machine to reset after every invalid (off target) touch. Meanwhile inexperienced epeeist often lack the patience required to set up a touch, preferring to charge in and overwhelm their opponent, who often lack the experience needed to pick them off as they charge forward. At higher levels foilist generally have better point control so there are fewer delays for off-target touches and epeeist are less prone to simply charge forward because their opponents are more likely to pick them off as they approach. At this point foil bouts usually take no longer than epee in terms of real time, and are actually quicker in terms of actual fencing time.

[amia]

The problem isn't your command of the English language (which is probably better than that of some regular posters here), it's merely that you missed Inq's little joke. Inquartata is a saber fencer, and saber bouts tend to end so quickly that often enough no one even bothers to keep track of time.

As far as foil tournaments taking longer than epee, my experience has been

Hi SJCFU#2, thanks for the clarification. Even so, I guess the scoring system is used in saber to see if there was a hit and who hit first (although in some cases the scoring system can "miss" hits that might have been obvious to the referee).

I have never been to a foil tournament but that is what I heard. Although, as I said, I suspected it might have to do with the nature of specific fencers and coaches. My only experience of this is that in the last epee contest there was a foil fencer (which competed in epee) and he refused to clear the strip for 2 hours because he contested the referee decision to yellow card him for faulty equipment. This halted the entire competition for 2 hours and then I heard about the difference between the foil an epee tournaments. I guess this is a local phenomenon than.

[SJCFU#2]

My only experience of this is that in the last epee contest there was a foil fencer (which competed in epee) and he refused to clear the strip for 2 hours because he contested the referee decision to yellow card him for faulty equipment.

Two hours! It shouldn't have taken more than 5 minutes for the bout committee to show him t.45 (a rule that applies to all weapons!).

After that if the fencer has two options - obey the referee's order to come on guard or start receiving penalty touches for refusal to obey the referee (t.82.2) - either way the bout should be over within 5 minutes, and once the bout ends he's no longer a fencer on the piste and if he continues to refuse to leave the strip he can be black carded and expelled from the venue under t.82.2/3.

[amia]

After that yellow card that guy lost the knock-out match (of the last tournament that year) so he had nothing to lose. It was very non sportsmanly behavior display if I ever saw one.