Bouncing

[KatonRyu]

There must be a thread around discussing this, but as with my 'shoes' thread I don't want to zombify anything.

In Johan Harmenberg's book bouncing is said to be a mandatory skill. However, I don't know how to do it correctly, nor do I know what it really looks like. The only person I know who really 'bounces' is my opponent in this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0aDLZBN0aNQ

Even he uses classical steps to advance/retreat, though. Moving while bouncing seems a slower way to move than classical advances and retreats, but isn't the point of it to be more mobile? I'd appreciate any help on the subject

[Inquartata]

"Just Joined"...

...must...restrain...fist..of...death...

[KatonRyu]

Just joined...the forum, yeah. I've been fencing for a while. Or is this about me starting a thread before reaching a higher post count? I have no clue what you're getting at, but then, I'm probably missing something.

[Beloit Fencer of Old]

Just joined...the forum, yeah. I've been fencing for a while. Or is this about me starting a thread before reaching a higher post count? I have no clue what you're getting at, but then, I'm probably missing something.

It's not the post count...it's the not searching for the appropriate, existing thread before starting a new one. Don't worry...it happens all the time.

[SJCFU#2]

I have no clue what you're getting at, but then, I'm probably missing something.

First off, you have to realize that there are some topics which have been discussed so frequently over the years that many old-timers' first reaction upon seeing someone start yet another thread is to respond "Learn to use the search engine". Unfortunately that approach wouldn't help much right now (as you may have already realized) because most of the last five or six years worth of threads appear to have been misplaced during a recent system change (see F.Net's Dark Years). Hopefully we'll someday regain access to that which has been lost (I suspect that it hasn't been lost so much as merely isn't compatible with the new system) - otherwise I guess we'll just have to endure the same questions being asked again and again until we have time to finish rebuilding the history of past threads.

Also, Inq tends to have rather strong dislike of anything remotely related to epee.

[KatonRyu]

Well, if you could give me a link to it that'd be much appreciated. The thread I found dated from 2004. Posting there would make it a necro and for some reason everyone hates that too.

[Beloit Fencer of Old]

Well, if you could give me a link to it that'd be much appreciated. The thread I found dated from 2004. Posting there would make it a necro and for some reason everyone hates that too.

I remember a much more recent thread, but if the fnet database is in disarray, then perhaps fnetters can give you some feedback in your new thread. And now I think I know what zombify means. I'm too old.

[KatonRyu]

Well, any help would be greatly appreciated, as would any links to the most recent existing thread. I'll look for it just by browsing rather than using the search engine and see what it turns up. If I find it I'll just PM a mod to delete this thread.

[Inquartata]

Just joined...the forum, yeah. I've been fencing for a while. Or is this about me starting a thread before reaching a higher post count? I have no clue what you're getting at, but then, I'm probably missing something.

Wasn't meant for you, really. It was a sort of a joke meant for those who have been around long enough to be aware of my legendary ( and mostly tongue-in-cheek...mostly ) distaste for the...ah...holy canons of epee, such as, well, bouncing.

IOW, never mind. Welcome aboard, I hope someone answers your question, and stick around and you'll pick up the, uh, forum memes in time...

[KatonRyu]

Heh, I knew I was missing something. Anyway, don't mind my tendency to overreact too much; I sometimes get like that

[MBalderson]

To the OP: For an easy starting point, check out CyrusofChaos' youtube channel or fencingvideos.net. For instance, just watch pretty much any of the bouts from Beijing and you'll get a pretty decent idea of what bouncing is at the high levels.

[badpenny]

Ok, you're opponent in the video is not very effective with his "bounces". I don't think you would want to emulate that.

First, he's hopping up and down, not forward and back.
- something I thought you did well was to step into and out of the space

Second, he's not closing the distance very much - JH's technique is to fence so close so as to minimize any complex phrases.
- your opponent wasn't doing much, fencing passively and defensively
- you were dictating the fencing distance

I think if you watch the olympic epee fencing you will see much more effective use of bouncing.

I really don't know if you should bounce or not. I don't do it very often (sometimes when my legs get tired), preferring to use standard advances and retreats, but also many half-steps, something you can't do with a bounce. But then again, I'm no where near olympic quality, in my skills or athletism. JH's style was created to enhance his strengths (quickness) and minimize his weaknesses (reach). I would argue that what worked for him may not be optimal for you, but the take-away idea of concentrating on fencing that allows you to be the final decision maker, and to strongly consider what your opponent wants to do, is the way to go.

[KatonRyu]

MBalderson: Thanks for the tip, I'll definitely check them out^^

badpenny: You're right, I don't want to emulate him at all, which is why I wondered if his bouncing was any good at all.
As for whether or not I would benefit from it...I think I might, if my opponent is taller than I am. If he's not, though, I think just stepping in and out of range and generally staying mobile would be more beneficial. Of course, I'm nowhere near Olympic quality either, so maybe I'm totally wrong in my assessment.

[Joe biebel]

I think the "core" reasons for bouncing make a lot of sense. IMO, bouncing conserves energy while allowing many more tempos and opportunities to happen in the same amount of time compared to classic footwork, for the amount of energy expended. Trapping with these small tempos is ideal for epee due tot the nature of the scoring timing. I would agree with other posts, in that, perhaps watch fencing at a very high level, to get a better feel for what bouncing well should look like. Also, it would appear that the video portion of the youtube video you posted has been noticeably slowed down, so the comments on your opponent's bouncing footwork might be a little harsh.

[Gav]

If you type the follwing bold text into Google you will have a lot to read: site:www.fencing.net bouncing

[KatonRyu]

Joe: Maybe the slowing down has to do with your connection, because for me it plays on normal speed. But really, we did move quite slowly because it was only the first round and we didn't really want to use all our energy just yet. Either that or we're just plain slow here in the Netherlands

Gav: Wow, thanks! Really returns a lot of hits O_o

[Joe biebel]

Joe: Maybe the slowing down has to do with your connection, because for me it plays on normal speed. But really, we did move quite slowly because it was only the first round and we didn't really want to use all our energy just yet. Either that or we're just plain slow here in the Netherlands

Gav: Wow, thanks! Really returns a lot of hits O_o

Interesting, the music played at normal speed, and being as polite as I am, I refrained from saying that you guys are slow. The ref seems to move slowly as well, but not outside the realm of normal.

I saw a card issued in the video to your opponant. Not hearing the ref (and I probably would not understand anyway) or seeing some sort of posture that would indicate the infraction, I would assume it was for not obeying the ref or delaying the bout. Do you recall?

[KatonRyu]

He got two cards during the bout, both for disobeying the ref IIRC. I remember being confused about it at the time, and watching the clips on my phone (where they have sound) didn't really turn up anything either. And don't worry about saying we're slow; generally it's just the truth. In this particular bout even more so, since he and I can't stand each other and neither of us wanted to lose. Of course no one likes losing, but losing to someone whose guts you'd like to see smeared across a wall is even worse.

[Beloit Fencer of Old]

He got two cards during the bout, both for disobeying the ref IIRC. I remember being confused about it at the time, and watching the clips on my phone (where they have sound) didn't really turn up anything either. And don't worry about saying we're slow; generally it's just the truth. In this particular bout even more so, since he and I can't stand each other and neither of us wanted to lose. Of course no one likes losing, but losing to someone whose guts you'd like to see smeared across a wall is even worse.

How big is your fencing community there? It must bite to dislike a fellow fencer there so much!

[KatonRyu]

In epee, maybe one hundred people in the senior category who are included in the ranking lists. The overall community is bigger, of course, but aside from a select few people I don't really know that many guys from other weapons. At tournaments I usually talk to the same four or five guys, so my personal circle isn't exactly large.

The guy I'm fencing and me...well, we both think the other is a talentless hack. The truth of that is up for debate, as you'll understand. I'll admit, grudgingly, that the guy has become quite good over the past few months and I've resolved not to underestimate him anymore. (There was one incident I'm not proud of after a bout between him and me, and it was quite the eye opener for me.)

But he's the only guy who's actively hostile. Everyone else just says stuff behind my (and each other's) backs.