Strategy and tactics in fencing; (a laymans question)

[Z-axis]

Hello all---

I'm glad I found this NG a week ago and have a question for those in
the know, as my question doesn't appear to be answered in the FAQ
posts or threads I've been reading so far. I'm not myself a fencer, so
I'll try to be as on topic as possible for a question I pose to you.
To me, an important one.

I frequent another newsgroup where the *flaming* is renown on usenet
for being way over the top, and I mean full boar battling on the NG
mat beyond what most NG's consider flaming---VERY political, with
verbal sabres waiting to impale the slightest miscalculations in
thought. It's almost a daily war scene of political battle and it's
not media gaming. Covert strategies for tactical use is common-place
in trying to gain upmanship over others as a 'feinting' way of life,
unfortunately. For this reason, I've researched strategy to tactic
techniques used for war-fare; (Sun Tzu et al), pugilism tactics and
other martial art techniques, looking to use those techniques as
metaphors in the social-activism arena when necessary.

To my amazement when coming upon the 'drills' section of
http://www.fencing101.com/drills/ , I found micro-managed tactical
information that blew my 'laymans' head off when associating those
techniques to other arenas of interest.

After reading those drills I got to thinking that because of fencing
being such a *fast* sport by nature; to me, seeming faster than any
other sport for having to read an opponents 'next move' at the
micro-managed level, my conjecture tells me that strategy to tactics
in fencing 'out of speed necessity' must have the most 'refined'
tactical techniques because of that increased speed. I tried thinking
of a faster one-on-one sport for counter moving an opponent and
couldn't think of one. To me, boxing, as an example, seems dead slow
in 'counter-move' comparison. I could be totally wrong, and don't mind
correction if I am. Those fencing drills just grabbed my attention and
haven't let go. They seem to have found a place in my head, looking
for more :-)


My question is; Does anyone know of *the most* comprehensive site(s)
on the net regarding fencing strategy//tactics for use on the strip.
I'm so impressed with the drills page mentioned I just had to ask
this. A sort of *library of congress* archive site for fencing would
be grand, with tomes of strategy/tactical net-pages. The above drills
mentioned are just too brief an outline where I'd like more, a heck of
a lot more.....

I'm assuming that strategy to tactics for the strip is an on topic
subject for this NG. Hope I'm right..........

Z-axis




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[James Russell]

I believe it all comes down to good training leading to perfect instinct.

You don't "read an opponent's next move" (at least to a level where you think
about it", you just react, cause its what you've been trained to do (and have
practiced over so long).

James

Z-axis wrote:

> Hello all---
>
> I'm glad I found this NG a week ago and have a question for those in
> the know, as my question doesn't appear to be answered in the FAQ
> posts or threads I've been reading so far. I'm not myself a fencer, so
> I'll try to be as on topic as possible for a question I pose to you.
> To me, an important one.
>
> I frequent another newsgroup where the *flaming* is renown on usenet
> for being way over the top, and I mean full boar battling on the NG
> mat beyond what most NG's consider flaming---VERY political, with
> verbal sabres waiting to impale the slightest miscalculations in
> thought. It's almost a daily war scene of political battle and it's
> not media gaming. Covert strategies for tactical use is common-place
> in trying to gain upmanship over others as a 'feinting' way of life,
> unfortunately. For this reason, I've researched strategy to tactic
> techniques used for war-fare; (Sun Tzu et al), pugilism tactics and
> other martial art techniques, looking to use those techniques as
> metaphors in the social-activism arena when necessary.
>
> To my amazement when coming upon the 'drills' section of
> http://www.fencing101.com/drills/ , I found micro-managed tactical
> information that blew my 'laymans' head off when associating those
> techniques to other arenas of interest.
>
> After reading those drills I got to thinking that because of fencing
> being such a *fast* sport by nature; to me, seeming faster than any
> other sport for having to read an opponents 'next move' at the
> micro-managed level, my conjecture tells me that strategy to tactics
> in fencing 'out of speed necessity' must have the most 'refined'
> tactical techniques because of that increased speed. I tried thinking
> of a faster one-on-one sport for counter moving an opponent and
> couldn't think of one. To me, boxing, as an example, seems dead slow
> in 'counter-move' comparison. I could be totally wrong, and don't mind
> correction if I am. Those fencing drills just grabbed my attention and
> haven't let go. They seem to have found a place in my head, looking
> for more :-)
>
> My question is; Does anyone know of *the most* comprehensive site(s)
> on the net regarding fencing strategy//tactics for use on the strip.
> I'm so impressed with the drills page mentioned I just had to ask
> this. A sort of *library of congress* archive site for fencing would
> be grand, with tomes of strategy/tactical net-pages. The above drills
> mentioned are just too brief an outline where I'd like more, a heck of
> a lot more.....
>
> I'm assuming that strategy to tactics for the strip is an on topic
> subject for this NG. Hope I'm right..........
>
> Z-axis
>
> -----------== Posted via Newsfeed.Com - Uncensored Usenet News ==----------
> http://www.newsfeed.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
> -----= Over 100,000 Newsgroups - Unlimited Fast Downloads - 19 Servers =-----

[Zebee Johnstone]

In rec.sport.fencing on Thu, 24 Oct 2002 08:53:38 +1300
James Russell <apo@slingshot.co.nz> wrote:
>I believe it all comes down to good training leading to perfect instinct.
>
>You don't "read an opponent's next move" (at least to a level where you think
>about it", you just react, cause its what you've been trained to do (and have
>practiced over so long).
>

You also spend effort in creating that opponent's next move.

So you invite them, or you do something that they will (based on what
they've done before or what most folk have been trained to do) react
to in a certain way.

Then you use that "foreknowledge".

Training single reactions is training predictability...

Zebee

[TS]

So, Z-axis;
A typical Fencing Strategy applied to your forum, might be something like
providing a tidbit of information, or maybe even misinformation in hopes of
having your opponent form a predictable assumption, which you are then
pre-prepared to jump all over with proof of the fallibility of their logic
and naive assumption.

TS


"Z-axis" <allisbliss@musician.net> wrote in message
newsjrcru0864u58ut78ti8ap8n9g795f4bs7@4ax.com...
>
>
> Hello all---
>
> I'm glad I found this NG a week ago and have a question for those in
> the know, as my question doesn't appear to be answered in the FAQ
> posts or threads I've been reading so far. I'm not myself a fencer, so
> I'll try to be as on topic as possible for a question I pose to you.
> To me, an important one.
>
> I frequent another newsgroup where the *flaming* is renown on usenet
> for being way over the top, and I mean full boar battling on the NG
> mat beyond what most NG's consider flaming---VERY political, with
> verbal sabres waiting to impale the slightest miscalculations in
> thought. It's almost a daily war scene of political battle and it's
> not media gaming. Covert strategies for tactical use is common-place
> in trying to gain upmanship over others as a 'feinting' way of life,
> unfortunately. For this reason, I've researched strategy to tactic
> techniques used for war-fare; (Sun Tzu et al), pugilism tactics and
> other martial art techniques, looking to use those techniques as
> metaphors in the social-activism arena when necessary.
>
> To my amazement when coming upon the 'drills' section of
> http://www.fencing101.com/drills/ , I found micro-managed tactical
> information that blew my 'laymans' head off when associating those
> techniques to other arenas of interest.
>
> After reading those drills I got to thinking that because of fencing
> being such a *fast* sport by nature; to me, seeming faster than any
> other sport for having to read an opponents 'next move' at the
> micro-managed level, my conjecture tells me that strategy to tactics
> in fencing 'out of speed necessity' must have the most 'refined'
> tactical techniques because of that increased speed. I tried thinking
> of a faster one-on-one sport for counter moving an opponent and
> couldn't think of one. To me, boxing, as an example, seems dead slow
> in 'counter-move' comparison. I could be totally wrong, and don't mind
> correction if I am. Those fencing drills just grabbed my attention and
> haven't let go. They seem to have found a place in my head, looking
> for more :-)
>
>
> My question is; Does anyone know of *the most* comprehensive site(s)
> on the net regarding fencing strategy//tactics for use on the strip.
> I'm so impressed with the drills page mentioned I just had to ask
> this. A sort of *library of congress* archive site for fencing would
> be grand, with tomes of strategy/tactical net-pages. The above drills
> mentioned are just too brief an outline where I'd like more, a heck of
> a lot more.....
>
> I'm assuming that strategy to tactics for the strip is an on topic
> subject for this NG. Hope I'm right..........
>
> Z-axis
>
>
>
>
> -----------== Posted via Newsfeed.Com - Uncensored Usenet News
==----------
> http://www.newsfeed.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
> -----= Over 100,000 Newsgroups - Unlimited Fast Downloads - 19 Servers
=-----

[Jay and Diane Rudin]

Z-axis wrote:

> I frequent another newsgroup where the *flaming* is renown on usenet
> for being way over the top, and I mean full boar battling on the NG
> mat beyond what most NG's consider flaming---VERY political, with
> verbal sabres waiting to impale the slightest miscalculations in
> thought. It's almost a daily war scene of political battle and it's
> not media gaming. Covert strategies for tactical use is common-place
> in trying to gain upmanship over others as a 'feinting' way of life,
> unfortunately. For this reason, I've researched strategy to tactic
> techniques used for war-fare; (Sun Tzu et al), pugilism tactics and
> other martial art techniques, looking to use those techniques as
> metaphors in the social-activism arena when necessary.

I find judo to be a better approach than fencing against flamers, because I
don't want to descend to their level. Rather than

> To my amazement when coming upon the 'drills' section of
> http://www.fencing101.com/drills/ , I found micro-managed tactical
> information that blew my 'laymans' head off when associating those
> techniques to other arenas of interest.
>
> After reading those drills I got to thinking that because of fencing
> being such a *fast* sport by nature; to me, seeming faster than any
> other sport for having to read an opponents 'next move' at the
> micro-managed level, my conjecture tells me that strategy to tactics
> in fencing 'out of speed necessity' must have the most 'refined'
> tactical techniques because of that increased speed.

Not really. Chess has the same level of refined tactical techniques. The
biggest difference the speed makes is that I can't think the moves through
when I'm fencing -- the feint-avoid-2nd attack has to be hard-wired into my
muscle memory. In chess, I don't have to practice the physical act of
moving my knight to fork his king and rook.

> I tried thinking
> of a faster one-on-one sport for counter moving an opponent and
> couldn't think of one. To me, boxing, as an example, seems dead slow
> in 'counter-move' comparison. I could be totally wrong, and don't mind
> correction if I am.

I suspect that you are, at least somewhat. For a fencing thrust, I have to
move my blade *and arm* forward. I suspect that that's no faster than a
boxing jab. Parries are faster than blocks, however, since my arm doesn't
move as far and fast as my blade does.

But I'm speculating too. I'm no boxer.

> My question is; Does anyone know of *the most* comprehensive site(s)
> on the net regarding fencing strategy//tactics for use on the strip.

The best place to look is not on the web, but on a fencing strip. Find a
nearby college or fencing club, and go to their practice. Even if you never
fence yourself, if you catc fencers near the end of practice and ask them,
they *will* talk your ears off about fencing.

> I'm assuming that strategy to tactics for the strip is an on topic
> subject for this NG. Hope I'm right..........

One person happily jumps in with a quote from a science fiction movie, while
somebody else diffidently asks if fencing strategy is on-topic.

I *LOVE* this group.

Jay Rudin

[TS]

Assuming that the hand speed of a boxer and a fencer (of equar character)
are same or similar. But added to the speed of the fencers hand (tip of
blade) is the velocity provided by the movement of the body as a result of
the lunge, which the boxer does not do, and the apparent speed of the
fencers attack will be greater. Yes boxers do advance with footwork, but in
delivering a punch who's objective is power, the emphasis is on having a
solid footing and a shift in weight with the proper distance. Since fencing
cares little for the hardness of the hit, I believe the two forms have thus
evolved differently, one to favor speed, the other to favor power.

TS



....... I suspect that you are, at least somewhat. For a fencing thrust, I
have to
> move my blade *and arm* forward. I suspect that that's no faster than a
> boxing jab. Parries are faster than blocks, however, since my arm doesn't
> move as far and fast as my blade does.

[Z-axis]

On Thu, 24 Oct 2002 23:17:36 -0400, "TS" <tsdf@comcast.net> wrote:

>So, Z-axis;
>A typical Fencing Strategy applied to your forum, might be something like
>providing a tidbit of information, or maybe even misinformation in hopes of
>having your opponent form a predictable assumption, which you are then
>pre-prepared to jump all over with proof of the fallibility of their logic
>and naive assumption.
>
>TS
>
>

Indeed!. As applied to that forum, I interpret what your saying as a
way of goading an opponent into thinking one is weak through weakness
'baiting' measures, for getting *predictable attacks* by making
feigned weakness appear an easy target, where the attacker is actually
caught off guard/balance from their own over extension in enthusiasm
for the kill. What the attacker doesn't realize is that their attack
was instigated by feinting weakness 'bait' offered up by the apparent
'weak' opponent to motivate an attack in the first place, not an
attack as *untampered with*. It's *totally* tampered with. Knowing my
opponents writing style helps with predictability. I'm sure the same
can be said for knowing someone's fencing style before feining
weakness as a trap. It helps.

Zebee, to me, makes an insightful comment on this point:

>You also spend effort in creating that opponent's next move.

>So you invite them, or you do something that they will (based on what
>they've done before or what most folk have been trained to do) react
>to in a certain way.

>Then you use that "foreknowledge".



There's an implicit rule on the NG mentioned; if one's unwilling to
follow-up defend/parry/ an argument previously put forward in thrust,
you lose thread-match credibility even if like-minded defenders try to
take over for you. Thats the chickens way out of losing a
thread-battle; Covert *tag teaming* done by like-minded cell group
defenders who pretend to be 'independent' of each other as a ruse when
things aren't going well for one of their own who's gotten into thread
trouble. I see it all the time. A sort of; "handing the baton" out of
desperation when worn out trying to defend a dead position, hoping
others might win it for you. A *ridiculous* analogy that comes to
mind which I'm sure has no basis in fact is; if a fencer was losing a
match badly and out of the blue called a 'time out' on the strip to
let someone fresh come off the bench to win the match for them, while
not caring a hoot for one-on-one match protocols or judging rules.
With that animal called politics, no match rules apply. No wonder it's
dirty.

I'd still like to know which sites experienced fencers like to
visit/read on their own with reference to strategy and tactics in
fencing if you experts would do me the honor. I have no idea which
sites are generally considered good, bad or indifferent in fencing
circles, and in a way feel pretentious for asking seeing as I don't
literally fence, only figuratively in other arena's. Your responses to
a NG interloper is very much appreciated, and thank you for them.



Z-axis









>"Z-axis" <allisbliss@musician.net> wrote in message
>newsjrcru0864u58ut78ti8ap8n9g795f4bs7@4ax.com...
>>
>>
>> Hello all---
>>
>> I'm glad I found this NG a week ago and have a question for those in
>> the know, as my question doesn't appear to be answered in the FAQ
>> posts or threads I've been reading so far. I'm not myself a fencer, so
>> I'll try to be as on topic as possible for a question I pose to you.
>> To me, an important one.
>>
>> I frequent another newsgroup where the *flaming* is renown on usenet
>> for being way over the top, and I mean full boar battling on the NG
>> mat beyond what most NG's consider flaming---VERY political, with
>> verbal sabres waiting to impale the slightest miscalculations in
>> thought. It's almost a daily war scene of political battle and it's
>> not media gaming. Covert strategies for tactical use is common-place
>> in trying to gain upmanship over others as a 'feinting' way of life,
>> unfortunately. For this reason, I've researched strategy to tactic
>> techniques used for war-fare; (Sun Tzu et al), pugilism tactics and
>> other martial art techniques, looking to use those techniques as
>> metaphors in the social-activism arena when necessary.
>>
>> To my amazement when coming upon the 'drills' section of
>> http://www.fencing101.com/drills/ , I found micro-managed tactical
>> information that blew my 'laymans' head off when associating those
>> techniques to other arenas of interest.
>>
>> After reading those drills I got to thinking that because of fencing
>> being such a *fast* sport by nature; to me, seeming faster than any
>> other sport for having to read an opponents 'next move' at the
>> micro-managed level, my conjecture tells me that strategy to tactics
>> in fencing 'out of speed necessity' must have the most 'refined'
>> tactical techniques because of that increased speed. I tried thinking
>> of a faster one-on-one sport for counter moving an opponent and
>> couldn't think of one. To me, boxing, as an example, seems dead slow
>> in 'counter-move' comparison. I could be totally wrong, and don't mind
>> correction if I am. Those fencing drills just grabbed my attention and
>> haven't let go. They seem to have found a place in my head, looking
>> for more :-)
>>
>>
>> My question is; Does anyone know of *the most* comprehensive site(s)
>> on the net regarding fencing strategy//tactics for use on the strip.
>> I'm so impressed with the drills page mentioned I just had to ask
>> this. A sort of *library of congress* archive site for fencing would
>> be grand, with tomes of strategy/tactical net-pages. The above drills
>> mentioned are just too brief an outline where I'd like more, a heck of
>> a lot more.....
>>
>> I'm assuming that strategy to tactics for the strip is an on topic
>> subject for this NG. Hope I'm right..........
>>
>> Z-axis
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -----------== Posted via Newsfeed.Com - Uncensored Usenet News
>==----------
>> http://www.newsfeed.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
>> -----= Over 100,000 Newsgroups - Unlimited Fast Downloads - 19 Servers
>=-----
>



-----------== Posted via Newsfeed.Com - Uncensored Usenet News ==----------
http://www.newsfeed.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
-----= Over 100,000 Newsgroups - Unlimited Fast Downloads - 19 Servers =-----

[Holly E. Ordway]

Z-axis <allisbliss@musician.net> wrote in
<1i2irus5jm4rkrbgnt8fcbkdpqq282pdfb@4ax.com>:

>I'd still like to know which sites experienced fencers like to
>visit/read on their own with reference to strategy and tactics in
>fencing if you experts would do me the honor. I

It's not a web site (though I'm sure the text is online somewhere), but
the one book I've really appreciated for general strategy is Sun Tsu's
The Art of War. I was introduced to it as novice fencer, and a lot of the
advice stuck with me, and still does.

--Holly

[Zebee Johnstone]

In rec.sport.fencing on Fri, 25 Oct 2002 10:07:52 -0700
Z-axis <allisbliss@musician.net> wrote:
>
>I'd still like to know which sites experienced fencers like to
>visit/read on their own with reference to strategy and tactics in
>fencing if you experts would do me the honor. I have no idea which

I don't use websites.

I listen to my fencing master...

He will often have spot quizzes "If your opponent does this, what are
your options?" "If your opponent prefers this bind, what can you do
to take advantage of that?"

He will get us watching each other and talking about favourite tricks,
he'll work on weaknesses so we aren't relying on those tricks.

Fencing isn't easily taught via the written word, and what discussions
there are will be full of jargon. FOr example, Gaugler's Science of
FEncing is a huge tome complete with charts of what moves counter
which. THere's a discussion of strategy there, and Nadi's on fencing
has a fair bit too. But each book requires a deal of background, a
knowledge of technical terms and rules. Like books on chess strategy
do.

And even if you have that background, it's still a hard slog. There's
no "fencing for debaters" like people wrote "Sun Tzu for managers"...

Zebee

[Zebee Johnstone]

In rec.sport.fencing on Fri, 25 Oct 2002 12:11:53 -0500
Holly E. Ordway <OUTordwayWITHTHIS@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>It's not a web site (though I'm sure the text is online somewhere), but
>the one book I've really appreciated for general strategy is Sun Tsu's
>The Art of War. I was introduced to it as novice fencer, and a lot of the
>advice stuck with me, and still does.
>

IN that vein, Jeri Massey's site might be worth a look.

http://www.pipeline.com/~tkd-pix/ma_index.htm

Zebee