I am looking for the order of bouts for a pool of 16.
I anyone knows where it can be found, I'd appreciate
I am looking for the order of bouts for a pool of 16.
I anyone knows where it can be found, I'd appreciate
http://www.chebucto.ns.ca/SportFit/F...r_of_bouts.pdf
versus
http://assets.teamusa.org/assets/doc.../BoutOrder.doc
You will get two different orders for 12 person pools. The USFA pattern is complicated and would take some effort to extend. The one from Canada has a pretty simple pattern that you could extend to any number of fencers (at least a quick glance made it seem like it). So unless you really care to get the official answer you can just take the second one and extend it.
-ph
Or, you know, you could do two poules of 8...
I'm happy to answer pointed questions as respectfully as my mood permits
You are correct that the Canadian version would be easy to extend. Being an Armorer I like the lazy approach. Being a numbers person in real life, I do find one really big problem with this order. I know the order of the bouts are read down, but look at the 1st line across and see if you see the problem I see.Originally Posted by counterattack
12 is ALWAYS called second. The solution to this is also simple. Once you have created the table for 14, reverse every second entry of the first line. You will find this has now made each fencer called approximately equal first and second.
I would also suggest and maybe even pass this back to the Canadian Federation that this be done with all the pool sizes.
The other way is to do as the Pentathlon or NCAA team events are done with 4 fencer 'teams'.
Donald Hollis Clinton, Jr.
DHCJr@juno.com
To Teach is to Learn (Japanese Proverb)
Knowing the rule book by heart means nothing, if you don't understand the rules.
If you really must do a pool of 16, one simple way to organize it is as follows:
You create 4 pools of 4 fencers and fence those off,
Now after that is settled, you have 4 teams of 4 to fence off round robin.
120 bouts later you have a result.
"a braggart, a rogue, a villaine that fights by the book of arithmatick. Why the dev'l came you betweene us?.."
Here's a bout order for 16 based on the "rotation" method:
1-16
2-15
3-14
4-13
5-12
6-11
7-10
8-9
1-2
3-16
4-15
5-14
6-13
7-12
8-11
9-10
1-3
4-2
5-16
6-15
7-14
8-13
9-12
10-11
1-4
5-3
6-2
7-16
8-15
9-14
10-13
11-12
1-5
6-4
7-3
8-2
9-16
10-15
11-14
12-13
1-6
7-5
8-4
9-3
10-2
11-16
12-15
13-14
1-7
8-6
9-5
10-4
11-3
12-2
13-16
14-15
8-1
9-7
10-6
11-5
12-4
13-3
14-2
15-16
9-1
10-8
11-7
12-6
13-5
14-4
15-3
16-2
10-1
11-9
12-8
13-7
14-6
15-5
16-4
2-3
11-1
12-10
13-9
14-8
15-7
16-6
2-5
3-4
12-1
13-11
14-10
15-9
16-8
2-7
3-6
4-5
13-1
14-12
15-11
16-10
2-9
3-8
4-7
5-6
14-1
15-13
16-12
2-11
3-10
4-9
5-8
6-7
15-1
16-14
2-13
3-12
4-11
5-10
6-9
7-8
Thank you all!
Last question: Is there a way to figure out how many victories a pool of 16 can have? (I am creating a large board for the pool and will print Vs and Ds.
Thanks for the bouts!!!!
um. 15? is that the answer you're looking for? or did i misread or misunderstand?
15 would be for one fencer
But if someone wins 15, someone else wins 14 and so forth I guess?
Noodle, I agree! Strange question. You always fence everyone else in your pool, so it is the size of the pool minus 1.
If you are talking about the number of V's you will need to put up on a board for the whole competition, then it is (N * (N-1))/2 or the number in the pool times the number of people everyone fences divided by 2 or in this case 120.
The problem is putting up V's does not tell the whole story. What about a score of 4-2 for example?
If you are only worrying about victories and defeats then all you need is 120 V's and 120 D's.
Donald Hollis Clinton, Jr.
DHCJr@juno.com
To Teach is to Learn (Japanese Proverb)
Knowing the rule book by heart means nothing, if you don't understand the rules.
okay, i still don't quite understand the question. there are 120 bouts, so there are 120 victories that will be handed out. is that the question?
Sorry for the lack of clarity.
But with the answers I start to figure things out.
120 bouts won't generate 120 victories. Not everybody will win.
So I guess what I was trying to ask is how many Vs and Ds would you see in the pool (so I can print V and D letters accordingly).
But don't worry, I"ll just print a lot to be safe.
Thx again
Stop drinking the slushee for a minute.
120 bouts. Each bout has a winner and a loser.
I just took another sip!Stop drinking the slushee for a minute.
OMG!!! I can't believe I wasted everybody's time for so long!
Embarrassing
Can I delete my posting?
Don't worry about it, we all have a blind spot sometime.I just took another sip!
OMG!!! I can't believe I wasted everybody's time for so long!
Embarrassing
Can I delete my posting?
I don't think the "D" letters are a good idea. If you're going to use the pool to seed into a DE, or just to rank the fencers for awards, you will certainly need indicator points. You're overwhelmingly likely to have several fencers with 14 or several fencers with 13 victories, and several with only 1 or 2 or 3 wins. With only "D" on the board you've lost the data to calculate TS, TR and I, and so you can't rank those fencers.
Print off 120 "V"s, and 100 or so "4"s, "3"s, "2"s and "1"s, and 10 or so "V4"s, "V3"s, "V2"s, and "V1"s, and one "V0". You won't use them all, but better too many than too few.
How many strips is this monster going to be fenced on?
K O'N
Why bother when at least 20% of your fencers will either commit suicide or simply leave the venue in sheer frustration over the length of the pool?
Maybe the point is just to have a lot of fencing?Why bother when at least 20% of your fencers will either commit suicide or simply leave the venue in sheer frustration over the length of the pool?
The way we do things now is not the only way to fence. We used to fence events "Brazilian", pools 100% up to pools 80% up to DEs, or Super Brazilian, pools 100% up to pools 100% up to DEs double elimination, or even Super Brazilian Double Bikini Wax, pools 100% up to pools 100% up to Double elim, all places fenced out. The point was to fence all day.
These days you could fly across the country or drive for hours to fence and not even get a DE. Faster is not always better.
Or maybe the point is to give everyone a chance to fence everyone for the sake of actual evaluation. A big pool will give more accurate results than two pools of 8 to a single elim DE, I think. Especially if a lot of the fencers have the same rating, the two pools of 8 are likely to be uneven. I like Div II and Div III stuff a lot for development of fencers, but the pools are often horribly uneven since the levels of seeding are so coarse.
K O'N
You got it K'on: fencing a lot is the goal.
But not the only goal.
I also want to make sure everybody fences everybody.
And the bouts will be 3 touches only. Then DE.
I actually let people chose their formula. This one won over Brezilian method or other ones! People like the idea of fencing everybody.
May be it is because it's a cool tournament: I gathered 16 of the best west coast Vet (and probably national - 90% of the last NAC top 8 were West coast guys) and not only do they all have the same ranking (A) but also they all have pretty much the same fencing level, so anyone has a real chance to win. And the first price is an iPad!!
As for the Vs vs. Ds, of course I will have numbers as well for the TS / TR etc...
Good idea. Modern Pent. used to have a big pool one touch event, that was a great time.
Wow. Is this on askfred, or invitation only? I'm sorry to be missing it. But I'm not an A so perhaps I don't qualify.I actually let people chose their formula. This one won over Brezilian method or other ones! People like the idea of fencing everybody.
May be it is because it's a cool tournament: I gathered 16 of the best west coast Vet (and probably national - 90% of the last NAC top 8 were West coast guys) and not only do they all have the same ranking (A) but also they all have pretty much the same fencing level, so anyone has a real chance to win. And the first price is an iPad!!
As for the Vs vs. Ds, of course I will have numbers as well for the TS / TR etc...
Regarding vet distribution of talent, last SN 3 of the top 8 in V40 were west coast, 2 of the top 8 in V50, 3 of 8 in V60, so I'm not sure it's as monolithic as you think. But 16 vet As is a nice event, if it's not on askfred I hope you'll publish the results.
K O'N
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