Fencing Etiquette Rules

Dear all,

I'm trying to write a set of rules, that I can post on the club wall to get my point across
without getting any noses out of joint.
Does anyone have any additions / editorial comment for the following:

1) That beginner in the corner, who you have carefully been avoiding making eye contact with all evening,
would probably like to fence. But if your majesty does not belive that they will fence to your exalted level,
then by all means continue to snub them. YOUR membership fees will go up next year when they don't come back.

2) Epeeists on Foil Night / Foilists on Epee night: Your are there on sufference. One piste is all you get,
even if you've invited 10 of your buddies from modelling school.

3) When someone asks you to fence, your reflex answer is YES !
Only if you then recall that all your weapons are broken, your leg is in a cast,
and Sarah Michelle Gellar is beckoning you for your date from the doorway, do you have any weasel room to defer.

4) Your 49 all in your bout with your friend, when you notice the queue of people waiting to fence. Do you:
a) Keep fencing - It'll be over soon, and whats another minute when the've already been waiting for 3 hours.
b) Kick your friend off, and holler for someone else to fence you. It's an honour to fence you after all,
and they couldn't possibly want to have TWO new fencers on the piste at once.
c) Tell your friend that if you get off now, you'll never get on again, so best to go first to 100 instead.

5) Coaches blithely giving a lesson on one of the few working pistes, whilst there are non-working overheads
on pistes nearby. P. Off !

Regards
AJ

They are two bland. Can't you be a little more incisive?

bill Hall

"Fencerbill" <fencerbill@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20020920123442.02651.00000468@mb-cc.aol.com...
> They are two bland. Can't you be a little more incisive?
>
> bill Hall

LOL!

Great set of rules! Don't usually need them at my club though, thank
goodness.

kini mini

Well, rules 2 and 4 work just fine for me, but I always have problems
with people trying to tell me that I have to fence anyone who asks. I
don't, no one does. It's my fencing, it's my time (what little of it
I have) so don't try to tell me that I have to fence someone I don't
want to.

Achilleus

"Andrew John" <aj@mistrose.com> wrote in message news:<HAvi9.25472$Ee4.76170@news-server.bigpond.net.au>...
> Dear all,
>
> I'm trying to write a set of rules, that I can post on the club wall to get my point across
> without getting any noses out of joint.
> Does anyone have any additions / editorial comment for the following:
>
> 1) That beginner in the corner, who you have carefully been avoiding making eye contact with all evening,
> would probably like to fence. But if your majesty does not belive that they will fence to your exalted level,
> then by all means continue to snub them. YOUR membership fees will go up next year when they don't come back.
>
> 2) Epeeists on Foil Night / Foilists on Epee night: Your are there on sufference. One piste is all you get,
> even if you've invited 10 of your buddies from modelling school.
>
> 3) When someone asks you to fence, your reflex answer is YES !
> Only if you then recall that all your weapons are broken, your leg is in a cast,
> and Sarah Michelle Gellar is beckoning you for your date from the doorway, do you have any weasel room to defer.
>
> 4) Your 49 all in your bout with your friend, when you notice the queue of people waiting to fence. Do you:
> a) Keep fencing - It'll be over soon, and whats another minute when the've already been waiting for 3 hours.
> b) Kick your friend off, and holler for someone else to fence you. It's an honour to fence you after all,
> and they couldn't possibly want to have TWO new fencers on the piste at once.
> c) Tell your friend that if you get off now, you'll never get on again, so best to go first to 100 instead.
>
> 5) Coaches blithely giving a lesson on one of the few working pistes, whilst there are non-working overheads
> on pistes nearby. P. Off !
>
> Regards
> AJ

Dear all,

I was hoping for some additions/improvements. The rules are deliberately over the top (hyperbole),
and we are unlikely to need them either. What I am trying to do is have a germ of truth inside the
(the attempt at? ) humour, so that they are not dismissed out of hand.

Achilleus's response is a case in point.

Regards
AJ

"kini mini" <ronaldo_dNOSPAM@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:3d8ba272$0$18870$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.a u...
|
| "Fencerbill" <fencerbill@aol.com> wrote in message
| news:20020920123442.02651.00000468@mb-cc.aol.com...
| > They are two bland. Can't you be a little more incisive?
| >
| > bill Hall
|
| LOL!
|
| Great set of rules! Don't usually need them at my club though, thank
| goodness.
|
| kini mini
|
|

achilles2k@hotmail.com (Achilleus) wrote in
<ef594c61.0209211520.28f6513d@posting.google.com >:

>Well, rules 2 and 4 work just fine for me, but I always have problems
>with people trying to tell me that I have to fence anyone who asks. I
>don't, no one does. It's my fencing, it's my time (what little of it
>I have) so don't try to tell me that I have to fence someone I don't
>want to.

I see two sides to this. On the one hand, Achilles is correct, and there
are times when I really don't want to fence someone (perhaps he/she is a
really heavy hitter and I want to go home in one piece). On the other
hand, the one that I think is more important, fencing is a sport that on
the whole I've found to be a friendly and open one, and I think it's
important to make an effort to keep it that way -- and fencing anybody
who asks is crucial. (And seeking out people to fence.)

People improve by fencing an opponent of equal or (preferably) higher
skill. So if that novice in the corner fences you (experienced fencer),
you don't get a whole lot out of it, but it's very good for the novice.
Same thing goes if you want to fence the visiting Olympic-level fencer.
So how to deal with the skill differential? From the point of view of the
more experienced fencer, I use fencing with novices to practice and
polish basic moves. From the point of view of the lower-level fencer
asking the more skilled fencer to fence, I try not to take up too much of
their time.

If I'm the weaker fencer, after a little while I'll stop and thank the
other fencer for their time (so they can get on with fencing someone at
*their* level, without having to be the one to say "that's enough, little
grasshopper"). That way, the next time I ask a better fencer to fence,
hopefully that person will not hesitate, thinking "Am I going to get
stuck fencing this person forever?"

I don't have this sort of situation happen at practice any more (because
at the height of our sabre season there is a whopping three of us, and we
all just fence each other over and over), but I put this rule into
practice when I'm looking for someone to warm up with at competitions. I
think it's important for people to feel they can ask anyone to warm up
with -- I'm very appreciative of being able to ask perfect strangers to
fence before a big tournament, and getting a friendly "Sure!"

--Holly

achilles2k@hotmail.com (Achilleus) wrote in message news:<ef594c61.0209211520.28f6513d@posting.google. com>...
> Well, rules 2 and 4 work just fine for me, but I always have problems
> with people trying to tell me that I have to fence anyone who asks. I
> don't, no one does. It's my fencing, it's my time (what little of it
> I have) so don't try to tell me that I have to fence someone I don't
> want to.

Interesting...actually, in every martial art I've seen that involves
simulated swords, live blade, etc., it is always the case that if a
senior player asks a junior player to step out on to the mat so to
speak, then the junior player is obliged.

So I guess, Achilleus, if the person if is junior to you and they
asked you then you don't have to, should you not wish.

But if someone were senior to you, either in skill or number of years
fencing, and they asked you. It would be a breach of etiquette not to
fence.

Personally, I've always found it a privilege to play against
stronger/more experienced people..even if I thought they were
complete assholes.

Incidentally, this "rule" is found in almost all martial arts. I'm
surprised it's even in question here.


Yours Truly,

Phillip J. Inoy







> Achilleus
>
> "Andrew John" <aj@mistrose.com> wrote in message news:<HAvi9.25472$Ee4.76170@news-server.bigpond.net.au>...
> > Dear all,
> >
> > I'm trying to write a set of rules, that I can post on the club wall to get my point across
> > without getting any noses out of joint.
> > Does anyone have any additions / editorial comment for the following:
> >
> > 1) That beginner in the corner, who you have carefully been avoiding making eye contact with all evening,
> > would probably like to fence. But if your majesty does not belive that they will fence to your exalted level,
> > then by all means continue to snub them. YOUR membership fees will go up next year when they don't come back.
> >
> > 2) Epeeists on Foil Night / Foilists on Epee night: Your are there on sufference. One piste is all you get,
> > even if you've invited 10 of your buddies from modelling school.
> >
> > 3) When someone asks you to fence, your reflex answer is YES !
> > Only if you then recall that all your weapons are broken, your leg is in a cast,
> > and Sarah Michelle Gellar is beckoning you for your date from the doorway, do you have any weasel room to defer.
> >
> > 4) Your 49 all in your bout with your friend, when you notice the queue of people waiting to fence. Do you:
> > a) Keep fencing - It'll be over soon, and whats another minute when the've already been waiting for 3 hours.
> > b) Kick your friend off, and holler for someone else to fence you. It's an honour to fence you after all,
> > and they couldn't possibly want to have TWO new fencers on the piste at once.
> > c) Tell your friend that if you get off now, you'll never get on again, so best to go first to 100 instead.
> >
> > 5) Coaches blithely giving a lesson on one of the few working pistes, whilst there are non-working overheads
> > on pistes nearby. P. Off !
> >
> > Regards
> > AJ

Well I sure hope that people treated you with the same respect and
understanding when you were learning....

I don't refuse to fence anyone (the only people I try to avoid is if
they have physically "beaten me up" before - I don't mean an isolated
hard hit, I mean a large amount of pain with every hit they have
attempted...).

Yes, in general, fencing the best people does me the greatest good for
my fencing, but I can still learn things by practicing things on any
beginner or novice.

After all, if good people didn't fence me when I was a
beginner/novice, then I wouldn't be as successful as I am now.

Sorry, but some people's attitudes can be so snobbish and infuriating.

Honey

achilles2k@hotmail.com (Achilleus) wrote in message news:<ef594c61.0209211520.28f6513d@posting.google. com>...
> Well, rules 2 and 4 work just fine for me, but I always have problems
> with people trying to tell me that I have to fence anyone who asks. I
> don't, no one does. It's my fencing, it's my time (what little of it
> I have) so don't try to tell me that I have to fence someone I don't
> want to.
>
> Achilleus

It's obvious you were making an attempt at humor, but it also seemed
like you were venting a little frustration. All too often I have seen
people take it as personal affront when a better fencer refuses to
fence them. It's not. It also has very little to do with ego, more
to do with pragmatism.

In no other sport are the top athletes expected to play with/against
any one who asks. Why should fencing be different?




"Andrew John" <aj@NOSPAMmistrose.com> wrote in message news:<AAcj9.5946$6g7.15779@news-server.bigpond.net.au>...
> Dear all,
>
> I was hoping for some additions/improvements. The rules are deliberately over the top (hyperbole),
> and we are unlikely to need them either. What I am trying to do is have a germ of truth inside the
> (the attempt at? ) humour, so that they are not dismissed out of hand.
>
> Achilleus's response is a case in point.
>
> Regards
> AJ
>
> "kini mini" <ronaldo_dNOSPAM@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:3d8ba272$0$18870$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.a u...
> |
> | "Fencerbill" <fencerbill@aol.com> wrote in message
> | news:20020920123442.02651.00000468@mb-cc.aol.com...
> | > They are two bland. Can't you be a little more incisive?
> | >
> | > bill Hall
> |
> | LOL!
> |
> | Great set of rules! Don't usually need them at my club though, thank
> | goodness.
> |
> | kini mini
> |
> |

OUTordwayWITHTHIS@comcast.net (Holly E. Ordway) wrote in message news:<Xns929156C4B5439754hjkgfdjio5408@216.166.71. 239>...
> achilles2k@hotmail.com (Achilleus) wrote in
> <ef594c61.0209211520.28f6513d@posting.google.com >:
>
> >Well, rules 2 and 4 work just fine for me, but I always have problems
> >with people trying to tell me that I have to fence anyone who asks. I
> >don't, no one does. It's my fencing, it's my time (what little of it
> >I have) so don't try to tell me that I have to fence someone I don't
> >want to.
>
> I see two sides to this. On the one hand, Achilles is correct, and there
> are times when I really don't want to fence someone (perhaps he/she is a
> really heavy hitter and I want to go home in one piece). On the other
> hand, the one that I think is more important, fencing is a sport that on
> the whole I've found to be a friendly and open one, and I think it's
> important to make an effort to keep it that way -- and fencing anybody
> who asks is crucial. (And seeking out people to fence.)
>

It's important to be friendly, but this doesn't mean that one needs to
fence every person who walks through the door. People need to
understand that if you don't want to fence them, it's nothing
personal.

> People improve by fencing an opponent of equal or (preferably) higher
> skill. So if that novice in the corner fences you (experienced fencer),
> you don't get a whole lot out of it, but it's very good for the novice.
> Same thing goes if you want to fence the visiting Olympic-level fencer.
> So how to deal with the skill differential? From the point of view of the
> more experienced fencer, I use fencing with novices to practice and
> polish basic moves. From the point of view of the lower-level fencer
> asking the more skilled fencer to fence, I try not to take up too much of
> their time.

I agree that people need to bout people their level and better to
improve. But, in several situations I've been in, I've had to tinker
with that theory. In a populated club, with limited strip space, with
a wide variety of fencers, and a limited amount of personal time, the
competitive fencer needs to pick and choose his/her bouts carefully.
This means not fencing everyone. After all, looking around the room,
knowing there is only time for one more bout, and the competitive
fencer sees:

1) A complete beginner still learning how to parry
2) A junior fencer who competes nationally, but is that great
3) An Opponent who is better or the same level
4) An adult rec fencer who shows up once a week

Given those 4 options, most of the top fencers will choose 2 or 3.
After all, to learn from a better opponent,one needs to be at a level
to take advantage of waht the opponent has to offer.

A beginner, or rec fencer learns nothing from the olympian except that
the olympian can beat them 15-0 with just straight attack and no
effort.


> If I'm the weaker fencer, after a little while I'll stop and thank the
> other fencer for their time (so they can get on with fencing someone at
> *their* level, without having to be the one to say "that's enough, little
> grasshopper"). That way, the next time I ask a better fencer to fence,
> hopefully that person will not hesitate, thinking "Am I going to get
> stuck fencing this person forever?"
>
> I don't have this sort of situation happen at practice any more (because
> at the height of our sabre season there is a whopping three of us, and we
> all just fence each other over and over), but I put this rule into
> practice when I'm looking for someone to warm up with at competitions. I
> think it's important for people to feel they can ask anyone to warm up
> with -- I'm very appreciative of being able to ask perfect strangers to
> fence before a big tournament, and getting a friendly "Sure!"
>
> --Holly

debergerac@ziplip.com (Phillip Inoy) wrote in message news:<97b3a9dd.0209220649.48da2fb@posting.google.c om>...
> achilles2k@hotmail.com (Achilleus) wrote in message news:<ef594c61.0209211520.28f6513d@posting.google. com>...

> Interesting...actually, in every martial art I've seen that involves
> simulated swords, live blade, etc., it is always the case that if a
> senior player asks a junior player to step out on to the mat so to
> speak, then the junior player is obliged.
>
> So I guess, Achilleus, if the person if is junior to you and they
> asked you then you don't have to, should you not wish.
>
> But if someone were senior to you, either in skill or number of years
> fencing, and they asked you. It would be a breach of etiquette not to
> fence.
>
> Personally, I've always found it a privilege to play against
> stronger/more experienced people..even if I thought they were
> complete assholes.
>
> Incidentally, this "rule" is found in almost all martial arts. I'm
> surprised it's even in question here.
>
>
> Yours Truly,
>
> Phillip J. Inoy


Strangely enough, that makes perfect sense to me. But it's that way
in most sports. If I were at a golf course and ran into Tiger Woods,
I would never even think of imposing on him by asking him to slum with
me. But if he asked me, I would jump at the chance.

In some european countries, the top fencers hold separate practice
times to avoid the lower level fencers, but still make time to fence
the juniors.

For some reason, however US fencing think themselves completely
different than most sports.

Now, of course there are exceptions. If there are only 3 fencers in
the area, it's difficult to be picky about your bouts....

I can only speak for sabre at our club. Most of the time, we set
things up on club nights so that everybody gets a chance to fence
everybody else in sabre, often several times. We're there to help
each other develop as well as to have a good time, after all.

Sometimes novices at our club are hesitant to fence me (I remember
feeling that way when I was in my first couple of years), and there
have been a couple of people who have a hard time with me personally
and avoid me (what? sweet little me?). I understand it and it
doesn't bother me. I wheedle them into doing it anyway on occasion.

There are two times I will avoid people: One is when they "beat me
up" as Honey Bunny says. I usually allow some time for my bruises to
heal before I do it again.

The second time is just before I go to a tournament where my goal is
to win. My coach will tell me then, "fence so-and-so and so-and-so
and go home and rest." I need sharp bouts, and I don't fence the
novices. On those occasions I prefer to beg the best fencers to crank
it up against me.

I don't think I'd be doing the novices any favors if I fenced them
then. I yell a lot and I'm pretty intense.

--Delia

honey_bunny_too@hotmail.com (Honey Bunny) wrote in message news:<3c53d06e.0209220920.43adc315@posting.google. com>...
> Well I sure hope that people treated you with the same respect and
> understanding when you were learning....
>
> I don't refuse to fence anyone (the only people I try to avoid is if
> they have physically "beaten me up" before - I don't mean an isolated
> hard hit, I mean a large amount of pain with every hit they have
> attempted...).
>
> Yes, in general, fencing the best people does me the greatest good for
> my fencing, but I can still learn things by practicing things on any
> beginner or novice.
>
> After all, if good people didn't fence me when I was a
> beginner/novice, then I wouldn't be as successful as I am now.
>

honey_bunny_too@hotmail.com (Honey Bunny) wrote in message news:<3c53d06e.0209220920.43adc315@posting.google. com>...
> Well I sure hope that people treated you with the same respect and
> understanding when you were learning....

Growing up I played a lot of basketball. I learned very quickly which
courts to go to play. It was obvious that on some courts I could do
well, and others I would just get in the way, or be hurt. When I
started fencing, it was the same way. I just worked hard and got to a
point where the people around me would want to fence me, instead of
the reverse.

>
> I don't refuse to fence anyone (the only people I try to avoid is if
> they have physically "beaten me up" before - I don't mean an isolated
> hard hit, I mean a large amount of pain with every hit they have
> attempted...).
>
> Yes, in general, fencing the best people does me the greatest good for
> my fencing, but I can still learn things by practicing things on any
> beginner or novice.

While you can practice stuff on beginners, you can also practice stuff
on people your level, and then you learn even faster. And using a
beginner as a pincushion doesn't help the novice all that much.

> Sorry, but some people's attitudes can be so snobbish and infuriating.
>


In a perfect world, with all the time to fence, I would love to fence
everybody willing. Unfortunately, time is limited, strips are
limited, and I need to improve. It has nothing to do with being a
snob, but being practical. A novice an work hard and improve and then
be at a stage where fencing a much stronger fencer would be
beneficial.

Achilleus

> The second time is just before I go to a tournament where my goal is
> to win. My coach will tell me then, "fence so-and-so and so-and-so
> and go home and rest." I need sharp bouts, and I don't fence the
> novices. On those occasions I prefer to beg the best fencers to crank
> it up against me.
>
> I don't think I'd be doing the novices any favors if I fenced them
> then. I yell a lot and I'm pretty intense.
>
> --Delia

While on the topic of rules, how about "sabre fencers shall not scream like
injured babboons"?

It's especially annoying when they move to epee, and yell during a lunge.
It's even more annoying when they yell whilst slashing with an epee.

-Bill (who feels that yelling on the strip without sustaining a grievous
injury should be considered feigning an injury and carded as such.)

Achilleus wrote:

>
> In no other sport are the top athletes expected to play with/against
> any one who asks. Why should fencing be different?

Because, in fencing you are expected to face them in the tournaments?
Or more importantly because you owe it to the game and to all the
better fencers who indulged you when you were starting?

My experience, as an "old fart", is that it's the junior level
fencers who feel they are too good/busy to fence you. The top level
players I've met at the salle, Nat Burke, Keith Lichstein, Eric Hansen,
have always been willing to take time and whup up on me. Training
schedules allowing of course. But I've found several junior level
players who wouldn't care to play apparently because they felt it
would pollute their style.

J.

"Achilleus" <achilles2k@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:ef594c61.0209221034.6098ca57@posting.google.c om...
>
> A beginner, or rec fencer learns nothing from the olympian except that
> the olympian can beat them 15-0 with just straight attack and no
> effort.

A senior recreational fencer - I have learned a great deal from the few
matches

I have had with truly professional Olympic standard fencers.



Each point I scored is cherished and I have found the truly superior fencer
can

learn something from most matches - even if they are only critising their
own style.

A senior recreational fencer - I have learned a great deal from the few
matches

I have had with truly professional Olympic standard fencers.



Each point I scored is cherished and I have found the truly superior fencer
can

learn something from most matches - even if they are only criticising their
own style.



Regards

Kevin Phillips

"Wolf" <wrbusson@mtu.edu> wrote in message
news:uot0mhig54pl0e@corp.supernews.com...
> -Bill (who feels that yelling on the strip without sustaining a grievous
> injury should be considered feigning an injury and carded as such.)
>

I rather enjoy the sense of energy and intensity that "yellers" generate..
however, in my advanced years
I find I need all my breath for fencing.

Regards
Kevin Phillips

"Honey Bunny" <honey_bunny_too@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3c53d06e.0209220920.43adc315@posting.google.c om...
> I don't refuse to fence anyone (the only people I try to avoid is if
> they have physically "beaten me up" before - I don't mean an isolated
> hard hit, I mean a large amount of pain with every hit they have
> attempted...).

I tend to stop and correct fencers who are hitting too hard. Whilst I
accept
mine is a physical sport, I appreciated correction when I was hitting to
hard
as a beginner and now employ more finesse that brute force. At 6' 4" with
arms
like an orang-utan I have plenty of brute force.. its skill I have been at
pains to learn.

Regards
Kevin Phillips

I'm in a remarkably small club (still growing, thanks to the exhaustive
efforts of my coach) and I'm epee team captain. Unfortunately, if I refused
to fence anyone who wasn't at my level, I wouldn't have anyone to fence
except for the few times someone visits from other places. I never mind
fencing beginners because they can learn from me and I find that it keeps me
humble at times (the more cocky I am, the less likely to get the touch).
Besides, I remember being a beginner very clearly (heck, it was only 9
months ago) and if the more advanced fencers had refused to fence me, I
shudder to think where I'd be today!

Jonathan Jefferies <jonathanjefferies@alamedanet.net> wrote in message news:<3D8E8D3C.2000302@alamedanet.net>...
> Achilleus wrote:
>
> >
> > In no other sport are the top athletes expected to play with/against
> > any one who asks. Why should fencing be different?
>
> Because, in fencing you are expected to face them in the tournaments?

div 1 NAC's you don't face them. World cups you don't face them.

> Or more importantly because you owe it to the game and to all the
> better fencers who indulged you when you were starting?

They didn't indulge me. I started at a club where they made it clear
that it was a chore to fence with me, until I got better.

>
> My experience, as an "old fart", is that it's the junior level
> fencers who feel they are too good/busy to fence you. The top level
> players I've met at the salle, Nat Burke, Keith Lichstein, Eric Hansen,
> have always been willing to take time and whup up on me. Training
> schedules allowing of course. But I've found several junior level
> players who wouldn't care to play apparently because they felt it
> would pollute their style.
>
> J.

Training schedule allowing is key. In my current situation, I don't
have a lot of time, there isn't much strip space, and a plethora of
fencers of widely different abilities. It's simple time management.