To fence foil and beyond..

[angriff]

Hi to all, I'm new to this board although I've been reading the threads for some time now

I'm an epeeist of 2 years now, began training with it from day one. However I've taken to fencing foil lately, despite having only 2 months of foil training half a year ago under a guest coach at my club. I find foil more fun and challenging than epee, despite having big problems with the right-of-way concept: I'm too used to sticking my blade out at a charging opponent, and when both lights come on the hit is awarded (naturally) to the attacker..

Another reason I'd like to switch to foil training is to complement my epee game - I can't parry riposte properly, my footwork is too slow and I have no finger-play to speak of..

Would like to hear your views on whether if changing to foil training would rectify these shortcomings in my game, as well as if you'd recommend an epeeist switch to fencing foil. I mean, foilists take to the epee easily enough but is a switch in the other direction ideal?

Awaiting your responses

[Drew42]

As an epee fencer I find myself having more trouble going back to foil. I have to *think* about the whole right-of-way thing because its not instinctive; which means I get hit a lot more. The guard is totally different and I find myself trying to parry with the bell guard and do stop thrusts. All not very conducive to good foil fencing. I found it much easier to go from foil fencing to epee. Maybe I have an apee mindset?

Andy

[epeefencer74]

I started out in foil, but my coach found that it wasn't suitable for me at the time, then he had me try out Sabre, but again at the time this wasn't suited to me. In the end Epee turned out to be the weapon for me. Now having fenced Epee for so long, I've developed what my coach calls a martial mindset. His definition of it is that it is a mindset of a fighter who strives to survive. In fencing terms that is to hit and not be hit. I've recently returned to fencing foil recreationally and Sabre competively and have found that I have improved considerably in both these weapons. I'm able to give a couple of our top foilist a good run for their money. Of course I almost always lose the bout but man do I make them work for it. I do think it is easier to switch from foil to epee, but I don't see a great difficulty of switching back the other way. Just go for the single light and there will be no argument over right of way.

[angriff]

I have to *think* about the whole right-of-way thing because its not instinctive; which means I get hit a lot more. The guard is totally different and I find myself trying to parry with the bell guard and do stop thrusts.

Yes, me too! But I do worse, I don't even attempt to parry with the bell guard.. I simply attempt the stop thrust..

Originally posted by epeefencer74
Just go for the single light and there will be no argument over right of way.

Thanks, this is good advice

I have another query for you foilists out there: if, against an onrushing attacker, I manage to move back far enough to get my point in line and stop hit, will I be awarded the hit even if both lights come on?

Thanks in advance

[veeco]

Originally posted by angriff
Yes, me too! But I do worse, I don't even attempt to parry with the bell guard.. I simply attempt the stop thrust..



Thanks, this is good advice

I have another query for you foilists out there: if, against an onrushing attacker, I manage to move back far enough to get my point in line and stop hit, will I be awarded the hit even if both lights come on?

Thanks in advance

I think that the line has to be established _before_ the attack starts. That means if you establish your line before they initiate their final action (advance-lunge in one tempo or just lunge), AND they can't/don't deflect your PIL, then you have ROW.

In practice, this is pretty hard to do, because establishing your line before the attack starts means that your opponent has all the time to see it, beat it, and then hit you. Typically, a line will be used to break someone's attack, make them doubt, and hit them on that time. That would be called attack in prep for you.

But I'm sure there will be foilists here on this board who will correct me, because foil is not my main weapon, so I might be wrong.

[veeco]

Originally posted by angriff
I find foil more fun and challenging than epee,

This is a valid reason to switch to foil.

Another reason I'd like to switch to foil training is to complement my epee game - I can't parry riposte properly, my footwork is too slow and I have no finger-play to speak of..

That is, IMO and I think from some debates that happened before on this board not a good reason to start fencing foil.

First of all, foil is a 2 dimensional weapon (in terms of target area) That means that ripostes in epee are much more different than in foil. Sure you will see here and there someone being able to pull off a flick riposte to the shoulder, but this is more the exception than the norm.

Then, there is the fact that in epee, ripostes are usually done while the blade is kept under control, to avoid any remise from your opponent to hit you.

So I'd say, if you learn to parry riposte fencing foil, then you still don't know how to parry riposte in epee.

There are other ways to improve your footwork than fencing foil, or sabre. One of them is to follow a strict and serious footwork schedule and train hard. Lifting weights can help here, too, if done properly.

As far as the finger play is concerned, there are other excercises (golf ball, drills with the blade, doorknob exercise...)

Hope this helps

[epeefencer74]

Well the fun factor is a very good reason to start fencing any weapon. Also picking up a second or third weapon means that you are less likely to get stuck with sitting on the bench while waiting for someone else from your weapon group to show up at the club for a bout . Just pick up any weapon and fence.

[135711]

right of way, or row as heidi likes to say, if very instintive with me, that's why i stuck with foil for so long; but, what i picked up, as a lazy bad habit, was a reliance on my 'reach' as people considered me to be a 'tall' fencer, and i was told that epee might be a good choice. i like both weapons, and learned to drop the whole row thing, and with epee you can sort of just go wild. i believe that the lessons are odd: we learn to 'place the button of the epee onto a few select spots: the space between the thumb and index finger, the wrist, the elbow crease, the forearm, and the toe. THINK ABOUT IT! are those small targets or what!!!. when you can just go for the entire thing the whole show, the entire target, the body head to toe, why do we do the toe or the index finger thing?

[veeco]

Originally posted by 135711
right of way, or row as heidi likes to say, if very instintive with me, that's why i stuck with foil for so long; but, what i picked up, as a lazy bad habit, was a reliance on my 'reach' as people considered me to be a 'tall' fencer, and i was told that epee might be a good choice. i like both weapons, and learned to drop the whole row thing, and with epee you can sort of just go wild. i believe that the lessons are odd: we learn to 'place the button of the epee onto a few select spots: the space between the thumb and index finger, the wrist, the elbow crease, the forearm, and the toe. THINK ABOUT IT! are those small targets or what!!!. when you can just go for the entire thing the whole show, the entire target, the body head to toe, why do we do the toe or the index finger thing?

Because it just hurts more to hit someone's knuckles or toe than hitting someone's belly.

Seriously, in epee, there is no reason not to hit the body. What the lessons are designed for, though is to improve certain skills. In a competitive bout, you will try to hit somewhere and end up about 10 cm away from it, just because it's competition. In practice and lessons, one should strive to hit as precisely as possible to avoid that 10 cm difference between practice and competition.

[remise]

My coach took the foil out of my hand after four weeks of fencing and thrust an epee at me and said,"Here. Your moves are all epee. Forget foil." I've never gone back, and it was probably the best move for me. I'd probably get creamed by a foil fencer, although both of my kids fence foil, I like the fact that they have their world, and I have mine.