French vs Pistol Grips

[CChang]

Dear All,

A debate between myself and another clubmate arose when I looked to saw down the French Grips so the tangs would be usable for Pistol Grips. In all cases below, I am referring to FOIL not epee.

This issue arose when during club practice we had multiple equipment problems because we had a poor combination of Lefty Righty Two Prong Bayonent Working Non-Working foils. It was simply a mess to figure out what we could and could not use. My remedy was to saw down our French Grip Electric Foils, since they dont work anyways, and have room to use it as an extra pistol grip, lefty or righty, etc to add to the possibility in combination.

I reasoned that since all of our competition blades were pistol grip, except those (non working) three, it makes sense for members to have consistent blade practice with pistol grips instead of switching back and forth.

My Clubmate (a Sabre Fencer) argued that French Grip helped build point control and that there were plenty of national, international competitors that used French Grip in Competition. Pistol Grips are also orthopedic in nature and may or may not accommodate the fencer' hand size and comfortability.

The problem I have with this is that there are far more pistol grips than French grips and it does not make sense for club fencers, many of them beginners, to be switching back and forth. While I do not dispute the point control aspect French Grips, I argue that it simply does not make sense for fencers to practice with French and compete with Pistol. Since this is the case, and our club lacks sufficient variety in accommodating blades, it makes more sense to have it all as pistol.
(...I also do not know any national or international fencers that compete diligently with a French Grip)

[edew]

Take one french grip foil. Beat your club-mate with the pommel end until he is no longer breathing. Argument is then concluded.

[telkanuru]

My Clubmate (a Sabre Fencer) argued that French Grip helped build point control and that there were plenty of national, international competitors that used French Grip in Competition. Pistol Grips are also orthopedic in nature and may or may not accommodate the fencer' hand size and comfortability.

Your club mate is making things up.

[ysbadadden]

1) Practice with what you compete with.
2) You can develop and improve point control with a pistol grip; you can hold a French grip like a hammer.
3) Practically no one at a high competitive level (in foil) uses a French grip.

[epeelion]

My Clubmate (a Sabre Fencer) argued that French Grip helped build point control and that there were plenty of national, international competitors that used French Grip in Competition.

Why are you listening to a sabre fencer?

He's wrong.

[CChang]

My clubmate is an officer of the Club and I do respect his opinion towards all (well...excluding this one,most) matters fencing. He also has lots of experience working with some very competent Coaches across the country.

Point taken though, perhaps more posts and opinions from more members will yield a more convincing argument for me to (or not to) saw down the rest of those French Grips.

[Superscribe]

whoa whoa whoa. I happen to be fencing in national competitions. I use a french grip exclusively, and i kick butt with it. Also, i know a lot of national and internationally competitive foil fencers out there who use the french grip. Everybody claiming no one uses french grips for competition just hasn't been to the highest levels yet.

I love the full feeling it gives me.

I can flick and do all the fancy stuff.

[CChang]

. Also, i know a lot of national and internationally competitive foil fencers out there who use the french grip.

Superscribe, could you please name some of those fencers? I don't mean to be pushy by this question, I'm just quite curious to who these fencers are. I tried to do a google search and it did not seem to yield any results. (Probably because international listings are not on our American google..)

[Superscribe]

There are plenty of internationally competitive fencers who use the french grip

[Phaeton]

I'm the sabre fencer in question and let me give a few seconds to describe my rationale.


I actually don't give a damn whether people use orthopedic or French grips in competition. What I'm concerned about is that we have a set of weapons that is almost exclusively orthopedic grips, and that orthopedic grips come in various sizes. I was just going through equipment picking things up and setting them down when I realized that we didn't have an epee (orthopedic) that was an appropriate size for my hand. The wonderful thing about french grips is that they aren't sized, and they don't have the potential to be quite as uncomfortable for a fencer as a grip that is mis-sized or mis-fitted. I've read enough threads on here to see that as a potential problem.

I don't care if people spend their money buying pistol grips. I'd encourage it. Most people I know much prefer orthopedic grips in general. I'm concerned that we have a limited amount of money, need to serve a wide population that has quick rollover (it's a college club) and I feel that the club set of weaponry is best served having a small amount of french grips for those individuals that would A) prefer to have french as an option or B) don't have any grips that fit on them. If we get an overwhelming response against french grips we can cut the tang and make them orthopedic. We don't have those options the other way around.


I am not saying that you don't learn point control using an orthopedic grip. I'm not saying one is better or is worse. Like a French grip you can hold one like a hammer as well, but I think we need to have AT LEAST A FEW French grips available for people to have as a preference. Right now CChang wants to make all our wepaons orthopedic. I didn't raise an issue when we ordered a bunch of pistol grips for our armory. I want to keep a small amount of dry and electric french grips to be safe. In foils. In epees as well.

Also. Horrible title. It's been rehashed a billion times on f.net, and really isn't what either of us are concerned with.

[epeemike81]

I'm the sabre fencer in question and let me give a few seconds to describe my rationale.


I actually don't give a damn whether people use orthopedic or French grips in competition. What I'm concerned about is that we have a set of weapons that is almost exclusively orthopedic grips, and that orthopedic grips come in various sizes. I was just going through equipment picking things up and setting them down when I realized that we didn't have an epee (orthopedic) that was an appropriate size for my hand. The wonderful thing about french grips is that they aren't sized, and they don't have the potential to be quite as uncomfortable for a fencer as a grip that is mis-sized or mis-fitted. I've read enough threads on here to see that as a potential problem.

I don't care if people spend their money buying pistol grips. I'd encourage it. Most people I know much prefer orthopedic grips in general. I'm concerned that we have a limited amount of money, need to serve a wide population that has quick rollover (it's a college club) and I feel that the club set of weaponry is best served having a small amount of french grips for those individuals that would A) prefer to have french as an option or B) don't have any grips that fit on them. If we get an overwhelming response against french grips we can cut the tang and make them orthopedic. We don't have those options the other way around.


I am not saying that you don't learn point control using an orthopedic grip. I'm not saying one is better or is worse. Like a French grip you can hold one like a hammer as well, but I think we need to have AT LEAST A FEW French grips available for people to have as a preference. Right now CChang wants to make all our wepaons orthopedic. I didn't raise an issue when we ordered a bunch of pistol grips for our armory. I want to keep a small amount of dry and electric french grips to be safe. In foils. In epees as well.

Also. Horrible title. It's been rehashed a billion times on f.net, and really isn't what either of us are concerned with.

Sizes aren't so much an issue in foil... pretty much every fencer I've ever seen who uses visconti from 5'1" women to 6'4" men use size small grips. There are, of course, some who use other grips that don't come in different sizes like Belgian.

-m

[mrbiggs]

Superscribe, could you please name some of those fencers? I don't mean to be pushy by this question, I'm just quite curious to who these fencers are. I tried to do a google search and it did not seem to yield any results. (Probably because international listings are not on our American google..)

Superscribe is being sarcastic.

[CChang]

I was just going through equipment picking things up and setting them down when I realized that we didn't have an epee (orthopedic) that was an appropriate size for my hand.

I was referring to the tang cutting of Foils. Regardless, it is not a matter of whether or not to keep with orthopedic or French grip with epees because we only have tangs of epee blades meant for pistol grip. I wouldn't be able to saw anything even if I wanted. Though we do have one french grip dry epee

On a second note, all officers were present during the ordering process and you could have put in a request for an electric epee with french grip.

If we get an overwhelming response against french grips we can cut the tang and make them orthopedic. We don't have those options the other way around.

Regardless of whether or not we have an overwhelming response or not, our competition blades are all orthopedic. It is senseless to have them dry practice with french and compete with orthopedic. Especially when our single electric french grip is atleast 30+ years old and bordering snapping

Also. Horrible title. It's been rehashed a billion times on f.net, and really isn't what either of us are concerned with.

What would you prefer the title to be?


Regards

[Purple Fencer]

Uhhh...Phaeton.....please name these high level foilists who use a French in competition. I've only seen one experienced person use a french in foil at the local level (Leslie Taft of DFA), not at upper levels.

[telkanuru]

I didn't raise an issue when we ordered a bunch of pistol grips for our armory. I want to keep a small amount of dry and electric french grips to be safe. In foils. In epees as well.

Why practice with something you won't compete with?

[Phaeton]

Why practice with something you won't compete with?

We would have a few (two or three) dry and electric French foils. If you wanted to practice and compete with them, that'd be an option. This discussion arose out of ordering a few new blades during budget hearings.

Which are a small fraction of the overall amount of blades we have.

[Phaeton]

Uhhh...Phaeton.....please name these high level foilists who use a French in competition. I've only seen one experienced person use a french in foil at the local level (Leslie Taft of DFA), not at upper levels.

I don't follow foil. I assumed that there were people that are. If I have time I'll go look some people up.

We're dealing with a college club here. If people want to progress they can switch to an orthopedic later. Most of our fencers who don't know to use orthopedic already aren't going to need to make the switch if it's uncomfortable. My concern was size and the fact we have a limited amount of weapons. If grip size isn't an issue, and most people fit one size, I don't really care. I just know that I have large hands and that's been an issue for me.

[RebelFencer]

I don't follow foil. I assumed that there were people that are. If I have time I'll go look some people up.

You know what happens when you assume? You sound retarded.

There are absolutely zero french grippers in foil who are on the senior points lists or in international competition. There is no benefit, period.

I'm also going to echo that you train how you fight. Why practice with french if you aren't going to fence with it? I'm sure you're only trying to help your club, but you need to a)not make claims based on absolutely nothing and b)switch those over to small-medium visconti grips. Or just pistol in general. Please.

[Phaeton]

You know what happens when you assume? You sound retarded.

There are absolutely zero french grippers in foil who are on the senior points lists or in international competition. There is no benefit, period.

I'm also going to echo that you train how you fight. Why practice with french if you aren't going to fence with it? I'm sure you're only trying to help your club, but you need to a)not make claims based on absolutely nothing and b)switch those over to small-medium visconti grips. Or just pistol in general. Please.

To clarify:


1) I did not say that there were. I said that there must be. There's a big difference between those two statements. One implies I don't know, the other implies that I am sure of it. I never said I was sure of it.

2) I said that the people who used French grips in practice would use them in bout.

I picked up a grip that was too small for my hand. Budgeting is coming up and I raised the question whether it is a good idea or not to let fencers have the option of starting on French. He said there was no reason, and that they'd have to learn how to use one. I said you're holding it basically the same way, and learning how to use it may have some benefit in terms of point control. I told CChang to hop on Fencing.net and make a thread to be sure. He did. We got an answer.

In the process he made me sound a lot more sure of things than I was.


I raised questions because I care about things are going, and I think these questions should at least be raised. I was wrong. At least we know and can proceed ahead.

I really don't feel like I need you to condescend to me. I'm doing my best to get things going. I've been here a while and think I know what I know. I just didn't want to make any uneducated decisions. I advocate coming here to ask a question and y'all have to be a bunch of jerks about it. Thank you.

[CChang]

I must agree. It is quite unnecessary for such a comment. While I appreciate enthusiastic emphasis of opinions there certainly is a line. At worst, Phaeton was working towards what he felt was the best interests of the club - which is something that should be encouraged at our club.

Never a need to condescend - ever.