adult fencing child

[drayke]

Comments please --

In a recent open competition my opponent was a child about 10-12 years old. While I have ten years of U20 JO competition, this was my first tournament as I have not fenced in 20 years. While he was skilled, I was definitely quite obviously physically stronger. In the first round, he received several quite painful whacks when my blade contacted his upper inner leg (or higher). He was visibly in pain,holding his upper leg when hit there. The second time his inside leg was hit he retreated off the end of the strip. When he returned, he was clearly trying very hard to not cry.

It was very difficult to not feel like I was beating up this little kid. For the rest of the round, I was defensive only, holding position at the engarde line with no attacks and no reposte, parry only.

In the second round I returned to the offensive and often pushed him back to the end or off the side of the strip. Once my parry whacked his hand, again causeing him to back away holding his hand in pain. The next attack I began had him RUNNING to the end of the strip.

Again, I found this very difficult even though, when I was a child competing in open events, I was always competing against adults. I do not recall any bout ever in the ten years I fenced adults as a youth fencer where something like this ever occured.

Even though I wanted to end the bout right then after that last painful incident, I finished the round and the bout, though was entirely defensive after that. The kid 'won' and moved on.

Now, was he scamming, or was he really hurting - who knows and it doesn't matter. My question for comment is what is the 'right action' when there is such an obvious physical disparity of adult and child and there is such potential of injury to the weaker fencer?

[oiuyt]

Clearly you shouldn't intentionally attempt to injury an opponent, whether a child or adult. Likewise you shouldn't hit brutally, whether or not it's intentional. In either of those cases it's up to you to modify what you're doing. If you are fencing non-brutally and within the rules and your opponent doesn't like getting hit there's no reason for YOU to modify what you're doing. Keep using your style. You should not be forced to fence a losing game just because your (legal) style discomforts your opponent. I can understand why some people would choose to do so, but I wouldn't and I don't think people should be forced to.

Now if a kid is too small/young/whatever to be able to handle fencing adults, that's a problem his/her coach/parents need to deal with. Are there people who shouldn't be in an open event for this reason? Absolutely. However, it is NOT your responsibility as such a fencer's opponent to help them out. Once they're in, they're your opponent, they're on equal footing with everyone else there that day. Treat them exactly the same as you would a 6'4" 260 behemoth who reacted the same way (skittish after a hardish off target, running away when you attack, etc.).

-B :)

[Mo]

Treat them exactly the same as you would a 6'4" 260 behemoth who reacted the same way (skittish after a hardish off target, running away when you attack, etc.).

Think so?
I don't. If you are hitting off target that hard then perhaps you need to practice some more to get some better blade control.
I think you should scale it down but not give up. Maybe video tape your technique and see where you need to improve.
There could be some legit game playing but you can also do some permenant damage> Better to lose the bout.
Oiyt/Brad,
I've seen you fence younger kids and you know you are CAREFUL pretty darned careful. What choo talkin about??

[Capt. Slo-mo]

Drayke:

We've recently had a discussion along these lines (check out the "Co-ed NACs" thread on page 3 of the current list), altho that was more about men beating up on women due to differences in size, strength and temperment, but the posters did delve into fencing kids a bit.

Altho I was excoriated by some Neaderthal elements on this board for this attitude: when I fence kids in sabre, I take some strength and speed off my attacks and ripostes. I don't let them win, and I feel bad if they get a stinger, but I will sometimes give them opportunities to actually fence a bit, rather than go down flailing under 5 strait all out attacks.

My feeling is that encouraging kids to enjoy this sport is a higher calling than bruising their arms and pysches in pursuit of a couple extra points in a relatively meaningless open meet.

Now, with that said, to your case in point. If you felt that you were truly not being brutal, and that the kid was, in fact over-reacting to a reasonable touch, then feel free to apologize after they show pain, ask them if they need a moment to shake it off, and then get back to business. While we want to teach kids that fencing is fun, we probably shouldn't be teaching them that feigned injuries are a viable strategic tool. There are already several kids on the NAC circuit who visit that well way too often.

[DamedEscrime]

I have found myself in this situation on several occasions. At first I would just take it easy and sometimes the little snots would beat me....Well that's embarrassing. Now I have the attitue that once the mask is on...its just another fencer..Of course I dont try to kill 'em, but I certainly don't give them any leeway. I feel that they are learning also while they are competing with bigger, older fencers. It will either make them stronger or break them.
On a side note... I think that coaches need to help determine whether or not a child is ready to try competeing with adults.

[Mo]

Originally posted by DamedEscrime
On a side note... I think that coaches need to help determine whether or not a child is ready to try competeing with adults.

Darn tootin!!
If a kid is a total beginner and cannot fence at all, they do not belong in an open.
If their parents are the people making them fence, let the parents fence the big brutes and take the bruises.

[Gav]

If a kid is in an Open then he is obviously of an age that is considered to be capable of Fencing with adults and also over the minimum age restriction. As a result I do not 'pull punches' I merely continue to fence in the same way that I would anyone else in an Open. If they beat me then fair enough, if they lose I wouldn't expect to lose any sleep over it. If adults aren't complaining about the violence of my attacks (and they don't) then I wouldn't expect a younger to complain either.

Additionally I wouldn't go out of my way to hurt the kid - that's bad technique.

Also I have met kids who do 'play act'. Don't rise to itjust keep to your technique and all will be well. Kids of this ilk [in my experience] are usually given pretty short shrift by presidents and other fencers.

[swordsen]

I would not change the style of my fencing to accomodate a younger fencer. If they enter teh event they take their lumps same as I do. Niether do I use my larger size and greater strength to overtly intimidate them, not even when it is some little wretch who was watching the A fencer, decides he flicks are cool, and proceeds to flog me. (although I am sorely tempted)
As a coach of kids I do not ask or expect adults fencing my students to pull their punches either. This is a contact sport and if one can't take the contact stay out of the event.
I will also strongly discourage fencers from entering events that I think they are not ready to fence in too. (Often enough this is the D & under where you tend to get alot of college age beginers who can't control how hard they hit.)
It is an interesting balencing act sometimes.

[Crash55]

So long as you are not trying to hurt the child I wouldn't change your style. Though if you are hitting off target a lot then there may be something that needs fixing in your style.

If you do accidentally land an unexpectedly hard attack than you should apologize and ask if the other fencer is OK. Doesn't matter whether it is a child or adult. Though the reason for teh hard hit is not always the person landing it.

Twice now I have made kids cry on the strip. Though I don't believe either time it was my fault my club mates are very fond about giving me a hard time about it, reminding me how I beat up on little kids.

The first time it was in an epeeteam even and the kid had a habit of leaving his bicep exposed as he attacked. So I simply extended my arm and hit him as he attacked. I did this a couple times and hit him in the same spot. As it was a pool bout and I could see he was in pain I tried to change my game and it nearly cost us the bout. We faced the same team in the DEs and there I didn't pull any punches. I hit the same spot again and the kid started crying and by the end of the match he went and openly cried on his mother. His mother nad father were his two teammates. I tried to apologize to teh father but he said it was OK and that I did nothing wrong. Since the child's own father wasn' upset I felt I was definitely not in the wrong. My clubmates made a big deal about it for over a year.

The otehr times was in the DE of an epee tournament. The child was ranked 6th after pools while I was 27th. So I could not afford to pull any punches and there was no doubt about teh kids ability. My game at the time centered around counters so when he attacked I simply extended and used my longer reach. I nether adavcned or retreated when doing so, so the force of impact was simply a factor of his attack speed and my extension speed. Well he attacked really fast so he wound up impaling himself. First time it hit his chest protector and skipped up into his throat (that I felt bad about). Then I hit the chest protector and and it slid into his armpit. The last hard hit was when he tried to fleche. I parried prime and left the blade in place so as he came by he drove into his leg. The child was visibly shaken after these three with tears streaming down his face. He was noticably more cautious afterwards and I wound up winning.

Granted I felt bad about making someone cry but I do not feel I did anything wrong. I do not see how a simply counterattack or parry without an advance or lunge could be seen as brutal. People seem to forget that the attackers forward momentum has a lot to do with how hard a hit is.

Oh thi shappened in May of 2001 and my club mates still give me a hard time about it. Accuse me of beating up on litle kids. They have said it so much at local tournaments that someon actually warned me at a local tournament not to hurt the teenage beginner I was about to fence.

So if you feel you are in the right keep your style but expect that you are liable to be given a hard time about it.

[drayke]

Thanks all for comments.
A bit more peices of info - in the specfic bout I based this thread on, the hard hits were result of the kid parrying my attack into his leg. We've all had that experience and it can hurt like hell. Sadly for the kid, he managed to smack the very same place. ecch time. The other couple were a point to the hand and a blade smack on the elbow. I did wonder if he was scamming at first but the response of running away, not retreat, but run, seemed a pretty unconscious response.

I had a great deal of conflict on this particular situation. On the one hand, if a child is competing in an open with adults, one must assume that the parents and coach deem it appropiate. Countering that, I'm on the far side of my fencing career and a kid is at the beginning side. I was more concerned about not creating a negative experience with any lasting pain response and it didn't really matter to me if I advanced in the DE round or not.

Today was another open and while I didn't fence the kid I did observe that making a big thing of showing pain seemed to occur occasionally. These are small time opens, everyone knows everyone for the most part and clearly, the adults and older youth would know the kid and feel some measure of concern which a kid scamming could take advantage of. I took him aside for a moment and just said that showing that kind of evident pain might not do much here but at higher levels would just have the opponent eating the kid alive. That's a psychological game that is part and parcel of higher level competition regardless of the sport.

I've never been one to intentionally hurt my opponent (and that's saying something after 20 years of playing rugby) though I'm not going to check my game if the opponent is hurt. In this situation though it did not seem a question of sporting conduct as ethical conduct. It seemed just plain wrong, even though there was no intention to harm.

Thanks for the comments.

[oiuyt]

Mo, when have you seen me fence? Why didn't you come up and introduce yourself? I love meeting fencing.net people in real life.

If I made the mentioned behemoth react that skittishly I'd probably do a quick self-evaluation of what I'd done to cause it, same as I would if a child acted that way. If in either circumstance I found MY action to be the problem I'd change. In either situation if I found HIS/HER reaction unwarrented based on what I was doing (or warrented but what I was doing was still completely within the bounds of normal fencing) I wouldn't change. I treat the two situations the same.

-B :)

[Boo Boo]

Fortunately we rarely get to fence young kids in competition here since people must be 13 or over to compete in an Open event. I am a woman, which also helps: there is not a huge amount of physical difference (size/strength) between a 13/14 year old and most fully grown women.

If a kid is competing in an Open event then they must be ready for what that entails. Besides, from my experience of refereeing age groups, younger boys tend to do a lot more damage/pain to each other in their own age group than you are likely to do to them. At about 12/13 they are beginning to develop more strength than they can control or that their opponents' little bodies can endure... so they hit each other hard and burt each other. Its all a bit brutal! However, they soon learn that they will get more and quicker hits if they fence with more skill and lighter hits... :-)

So don't worry about it: just go out and win.

Boo

[remise]

My son started fencing when he had just turned 8 (barely). He fenced other kids at the time, and adults who were kind to him. Because he was tiny for his age, he looked to be more like aged 6 than 8, and when he affected the typical fencers' en guarde, there was virtually no target area for his opponent to hit.

So, he learned early what an over-the-shoulder-flick felt like, and how to effectively kill it. Today, adult fencers that know him won't even try to flick him because they know that an attempted flick means an automatic point for him - even if they are a superior fencer than he is. (He's had 5 years to perfect the block or parry-riposte on a flick) Anyway, when he turned 13, I experimented with acrylics and fiberglass, and found a way to construct 'armor'. That way, his legs, arms, shoulders, can be protected by a lightweight, barely-there substance that could block the force of a truck, if you would. So what if his opponent has no depth perception or point control. It matters not to him.

[geronimojox]

i have also had to do this quite a few times as well. dont feel bad because although i try to be as careful as i can there are times when you are lunging and going full out to get the point that you do hurt the kid no matter how good your technique is. how ever if they are on the piste fencing you then in my mind if they have made the decision to fence themselves then that is an entirely different matter. you treat them as you would any other opponent and you annihilate them in as gentlemanly a fashion as possible. do not do anything that would not be permitted within the usual guidelines of competition and everything should be fine. remember if people want to play with the big boys they have to accept that a certain amount pain will have to be endured even if it is not dealt out on purpose

[MikeHarm]

Have you thought of marketing it? I bet people would buy something like that.

Originally posted by remise
My son started fencing when he had just turned 8 (barely). He fenced other kids at the time, and adults who were kind to him. Because he was tiny for his age, he looked to be more like aged 6 than 8, and when he affected the typical fencers' en guarde, there was virtually no target area for his opponent to hit.

So, he learned early what an over-the-shoulder-flick felt like, and how to effectively kill it. Today, adult fencers that know him won't even try to flick him because they know that an attempted flick means an automatic point for him - even if they are a superior fencer than he is. (He's had 5 years to perfect the block or parry-riposte on a flick) Anyway, when he turned 13, I experimented with acrylics and fiberglass, and found a way to construct 'armor'. That way, his legs, arms, shoulders, can be protected by a lightweight, barely-there substance that could block the force of a truck, if you would. So what if his opponent has no depth perception or point control. It matters not to him.

[Aoife]

Well, from the other side of the debate.

I'm female, 15, and just of 5 foot. I know I'm dreadfully inept, and totally new to the sport, but I do find it a little irritating when my instructor (male, 32, over 6 foot, and bloody good) is obviosuly letting me score hits. Sometimes he just stands there totally open, and it annoys me, because I'm not getting real practise against an acomplished fencer. He really went for it with me for the first time on Thursday (I think I surprised him because I'd been doing loads of research, and had learnt myself moves he hadn't taught us yet, so he had to respond properly instead of slightly staged) and I enjoyed it, because although he soon took my blade, and scored a wonderfully executed hit, I got a chance to see how hard it was to parry his proper attacks, and it made me even more enthusiastic about learning- the hope that someday, I might get near that good.


Anyway, that's just my take on it.

(Also, when I did karate, I didn't like it when adults let me win. I was 8, and sometimes they'd think I'd be a 'cowardly' little girl. Dammit I was one belt from black, and they soon learnt! )

[Boo Boo]

Aoife

I am sure that your coach had the best intentions. Who is coaching you at the moment?

Many people do not like to go full steam at novices in case they put them off for life (they don't mean to be patronising, they just don't think it is constructive to beat up their opponent). However, I know what you mean about people giving away hits: they may have good intentions, but there are (subtle) ways of doing these things...

Others use novices to practice their least strongest moves or new moves: it appears as though they are not going full speed, but actually they are just trying hard to perfect something different (and probably loosing quite a few hits in the process).

Maybe have a word with your coach and says how much you appreciated and learnt from fencing him the other night and that you hope that he will fence you like that more often.

Boo

[Aoife]

Yeah I will, he's good at accomodating things that indivuals are having problems with or want to try out (the other week I could get my head around how to rispost with opposition from a semi-circular parry, and he explained it really well)

Who ois he? I doubt anyone will of heard of him, I think he use to do some competetions in England, maybe Europe, but he hadn't fenced for five years when he started again in November. His name is Justin Stavri, he's a maths teacher now.

[remise]

To MikeHarm:

I AM thinking seriously about marketing my stuff now. I've had a number of fencers tell me to patent the stuff and go forward, and at first, I thought they were just trying to be nice. In my son's case, he'd bout with someone, come off the strip, and say,"I need the shoulder-guards", or,"He's getting me on the thighs". He does not enter the strip looking like a knight of the round table, if you would. In fact, you'd never know he had any protection on.

This stuff drove me CRAZY. It is so lightweight (that was the biggest requirement I had to come up with. Foil fencers have to be able to jump around like trapeze artists) but other fencers were totally unaware that he had armor on til they'd hit him and ask,"Oops? You OK? and he'd say,"I didn't even feel it. I'm wearing armor." Sometimes, if he fences a particularly powerful opponent, you could even hear the 'clunk'. His opponent would say,"What was that?"