New and bewildered

[4stinkydogs]

Hi and help! I have a fencer, brand new to the fencing scene. (Y12) She just participated in her 3rd, very small, local tournament. 95% of the people,coaches, refs, etc. we have met are fantastic. However, one club consistently shows up that is just plain nasty. The coach and parents support their atrocious behavior. The coach directs each and every move, and their fencers constantly have an entourage of at least six people following them up and down the strip. When my daughter finally scored a few touches and was up by one point, an amazing thing happened: Two parents took out disposable cameras, pointed them directly at my daughter and popped off several flashes.
Later, she said she was blinded. Further, this club will taunt opposing fencers from the side - to the point of distraction - using her first name and making up chants.
At one tournament, a ref red carded a parent of one of these kids, and the coach had a fit. When anyone scores on these kids, they all argue with the refs.
At our club, our coach is insistent upon sportsmanlike behavior. Unfortunately, she couldn't be at all the strips, all the time - and I don't have a clue as to whether or not I can ask the ref for intervention - I don't want to look foolish or make a very newbie mistake! (I'll ask our coach about that the next time I see her.)
Is this sort of stuff common in fencing at this age level? My daughter was obviously outfenced each time, and yet this club would throw down their masks, and do victory dances when they beat her.
So here's the big question: How do I help my kid through this? She's just learning - I don't ever want her to stoop to their level. Some of you must have been in similar situations - any advice?

[KidLazy]

I don't have a clue as to whether or not I can ask the ref for intervention

Yes, you can ask, and ask for the bout committee too.

Flash lights should not be allowed.
Spiking mask should be black carded.
Spectators can be yellow carded (instead of red), then black carded.

If I am your kid, I'll train really hard to better myself and beat those people the next time I see them on the strip, with class of course.

[4stinkydogs]

Thank you for responding. You were correct - the parent was yellow carded and then black carded (I don't even know my red cards from black yet).
Fortunately, my daughter isn't going to give them the satisfaction of discouraging her from pursuing this cool sport. She's not exactly olympic material, and we just want her to have fun - but we want her to do it with class and try her best.
I was told by another parent that the refs always look the other way regarding this club because they have a lot of high level fencers that go to nationals. (Ok, I don't get that at all...why shouldn't they be held to even higher standards then?)

[Superscribe]

Can you please tell me what club this is? Perhaps the area in which you fence? If these are foil fencers, I can help.

[4stinkydogs]

I'm a little uncomfortable stating the club's name. I'm sure I'll have to see these people again, and I don't want to cause contention between clubs. The club has a coach dedicated to their youth program (they teach all styles through adult level), and these were their y12 foil fencers. The club is in the midwest. The coach is Eastern European. (It just killed me the way the coach yelled at the kids when they lost...) I guess one of the things I don't understand is that if they are so good, then why don't they stick to the "bigger" tournaments?
I realize that there can't possibly be that many rude fencers/coaches out there (like I said, 95% of the folks we've met have been super nice), but I'd like to be prepared mentally. My family are a bunch of artists, not athletes, and this is the first time anyone in my family has ventured into the sports arena! I feel pretty unprepared...I've always had it in my mind that fencing was a "gentleman's" sport.
If a small tournament isn't USFA or FIE, then are there rules that they adhere to, or is it just at the ref's discretion as to what is acceptable?

[lauralitz]

My dd has been fencing since she was 8.5 (she is 14 now) and we have had our fair share of yelling coaches, but in all honesty I have never had the experiences with the parents and fencers that you are describing. Shame on them.

I am a don't rock the boat kind of person, and I am not sure what I would do in your situation. I hope that you and your dd don't pull out just because of this one club. Surprisingly dealing with this will help her if you ever do try a USFA tournament. If she can fence through the poor behavior without being shaken, she will be able to deal with all of the noise and distractions at a national tournament.

Good luck.

lauralitz

[Purple Fencer]

The coach is Eastern European. (It just killed me the way the coach yelled at the kids when they lost...)

You just described a significant portion of the East Euro coaching community.

PM me with the club and region info...If I know the parties involved I might have some info to pass on.

[4stinkydogs]

Purple Fencer: I know this is dumb: How do I PM you? (Old dog, new tricks). This is the first forum of anything I've ever checked into. (You can laugh, it's ok!)

Laurlitz: My kiddo read your post and it meant a lot to her. Thanks for taking the time.

[Inquartata]

Go to your User Profile ( the leftmost link in the green menu bar at the top of the forum--- it says User CP ). In that, there's a vertical menu on the left which includes options for private messages...

Or just click on his name in the upper left corner of one of his posts, which will open a drop down menu that will let you send a PM to him.

[Rockstar44]

95% of the people,coaches, refs, etc. we have met are fantastic.

You will find this to be true throughout the sport.

The coach directs each and every move...

Not uncommon.

...and their fencers constantly have an entourage of at least six people following them up and down the strip.

If they are literally doing this, I would not allow it. This would be exceedingly rare, however.

Two parents took out disposable cameras, pointed them directly at my daughter and popped off several flashes.

This is a cardable offense and anyone doing this should be carded.

Further, this club will taunt opposing fencers from the side - to the point of distraction - using her first name and making up chants.

How low class is this? I have never seen it.

At one tournament, a ref red carded a parent of one of these kids, and the coach had a fit. When anyone scores on these kids, they all argue with the refs.

This is pretty much standard practice, especially with Eastern European coaches.

At our club, our coach is insistent upon sportsmanlike behavior.

GOOD FOR HER!

Is this sort of stuff common in fencing at this age level?

Not really.

So here's the big question: How do I help my kid through this? She's just learning - I don't ever want her to stoop to their level. Some of you must have been in similar situations - any advice?

It sounds to me like you are doing the right thing already. It's obvious that you are seeing this behavior for what it is, and I would guess that you are imparting this attitude to your daughter.

Life is hard and it's full of jerks. Your daughter has to learn to deal with them. This is not to say that I think that people who act like this should get away with it. They are wrong and this behavior should be dealt with. Overall, fencing is the most honorable of sports that I have ever seen. There are fewer jerks than you will find in other sports. We do have them, though. Just like real life.

Tell your daughter that when the day is done, what counts is how she conducted herself. That's what helps you sleep at night.

Fencing is a wonderful and honorable sport. I hope that she sticks with it.

[4stinkydogs]

Rockstar - thanks for your comments. Unfortunately, everything I stated was true and not exaggerated. I'm glad to hear that it is NOT common. I was warned about this particular club, but I didn't take it seriously - I couldn't believe that a coach, parents and little kids would act this way. Guess I know better now. I'll file this one under "live and learn".
I love to watch fencing - it's so beautiful. I'm pretty sure my daughter will stick with it. I'll be more careful about which tournaments I sign her up for, and that should help. She's a scrapper though, and enjoys the sport. Her coach is also a great source of inspiration - that will go really far. I've actually just let the coach handle the whole thing - I just want to be sure I give the correct support.
Again, thanks to everyone for the input.

[Lady Quindecim]

I had an opponent with just such a coach. I had seen them (not in my pool) and rolled my eyes when I came up against them in DE. I had really started getting down and frustrated.
My coach came to me during break (I had lost me lead when I started to get frustrated) and he said, "Don't pay attention to me, just fence like you know how." Then he started "giving it back" to the other coach. They were both black carded, the kid was lost without his coach, and ended up crying when I came back to win. (Coach did not normally strip coach, so I was more used to being "on my own.")

After it was over, I was like - flabbergasted with my coach. He said something like, "You are the fencer and you are not aloud to do that. I am your coach and that is my job, to take care of you." And went on to say that he hates coaches like that working with kids - and that is fine (tone of voice implied something like mild tolerance) with older fencers, champion fencers - that it is a mental game - but it is bad to do that in a youth or cadet event. Then he went on to talk about his insane coaches and the stuff they did. And that sometimes a coach will make a scene - even to the point of a black card - for the psychology of it all.

I never looked at my coach the same again... not really better or worse, just not the same. Due to unrelated circumstances, I have changed clubs and do not really see my old coach any more.

[Allen Evans]

Many years ago, a town was lucky to have more than a few clubs (unless it was a very big city). Clubs had to cooperate and show some tolerance to each other in order to have enough people to fence against. Now, fencing has grown, and clubs are more prolific. This reduces the inter-dependance that clubs used to have with each other, and also insures that more "fringe" behavior takes place. When you add this to the trend of coaches getting their sole income from running a club, and some foreign coaches not being very culturally socialized, bad behavior starts to appear.

For you (and your division) certain behavior that you've described is against the rules. Taunting, name-calling and so forth can and should be punished. If your division (or the local referee cadre) seems reluctant to act, there are probably other parents (and clubs) that can form a united front to bring more pressure to bear. Hiring the occasional out of town referee who is willing to card for bad behavior can be a good investment.

For the behavior that seems objectionable, but is not against the rules, you have an excellant oppoturnity to point out a lot of lessons to your child about sportsmanship, personal character, healthy rivalry, and making choices about who you want to associate with, and who you don't..

[dcmdale]

Fencing is no different than other sports in that most coaches, participants, and parents are good, normal people who want the kids to learn sportsmanship and skills. While those new to fencing tend to equate it with chivalry and gentlemanly (gentlewomanly) tradition, the truth is that there are those in the sport for whom winning is the only thing. You will encounter the good and the bad at all levels of the sport. Fortunately, there are a lot more good fencers, coaches, and parents than bad.

After you have had a few events with the other club, their routine will probably get boring. Then you will probably see how abusive those types of clubs are to their own kids. There are some very unfortunate situations going on in many of those clubs because the coach has convinced the parents that this is what it takes to make their kids "into champions." Sometimes, they do become champions (at least to the extent that winning can be confused with being a champion) simply because they are motivated to win for fear of the abuse they face in losing. However, one of our earliest experiences was listening to a coach screaming at a Y12 girl who had just won a local event because she had not dominated it "sufficiently." The kid was bawling, but her coach just kept screaming at her about how worthless she was. A real winner of a coach. When she won the national championship at her age level, it wasn't good enough because she only finished 3rd at the next age group up.

As you are more comfortable with fencing and event structure, the antics of this other club will undoubtedly be less annoying than pathetic.

The only ones that you really need to watch out for, and fortunately they are very few and generally adult fencers coming out of a few NCAA programs, are those that will chose to purposefully injure someone that they are finding difficult to beat on points. It is better to lose a bout than have long-term wrist damage. Your daughter isn't at that level yet, but be attentive if you see her as a Y14 or Cadet fencer holding her own against a ranked Div I fencer. Frankly, there is not a card black enough for those type.

[4stinkydogs]

Regarding purposeful injury: On a different strip, there was a y12 fencer (from a different club than the one I was previously talking about) that was down two points. The ref had called a halt and this kid kept going at his opponent, body checked him and pommelled him in the throat. They both went down, and the attacked kid (who was from the nasty club, by the way - but NO ONE deserves that sort of treatment) knocked his head really hard in addition to the throat injury. I didn't mention it because it didn't directly affect my fencer, but it stopped action at the entire tournament. I had a great view of the whole thing and everyone on my side of the strip just gasped. I sort of wondered if the kid who attacked just had been fed up with the nasty club's behaviour. Of course, if he can't keep his anger under control, he shouldn't have a weapon in his hand!
Thanks again to everyone who has responded - it's been great having a place to let out my frustration and get good advice instead of showing my level of frustration to my kid. By the way - she's over it, her coach has talked to her, and she's going to the next tournament where the ugly club is going to be. I think the comments here about this club's behaviour just getting old and pathetic is exactly what is going to happen.

[pinkelephant]

Sounds like what it needs is for everybody else in the room to watch the nasty club's fencers and supporters - and laugh at them. Take photos of them when they are misbehaving. Don't stoop to their level - but just let them know how ridiculous their behaviour is in such a way that they start to feel rattled. There is nothing a bully (and that's what they are) hates more than being laughed at, and consequently being made to feel that their antics are having no effect. Even better, beat their fencers while doing it!

Most fencers are really nice, as are their supporters. They must be, or there wouldn't be so many of us still in the sport who started when we were kids. Just hang on to that.

[telkanuru]

Honestly, when stuff like that goes on, you have to ask what the refs were (or weren't) doing...

[KidLazy]

U.S., India parents seen as worst behaved at kids' sports?

[Alastair]

Sounds like what it needs is for everybody else in the room to watch the nasty club's fencers and supporters - and laugh at them.

I recently fenced a DE against an opponent whom I had encountered before and knew to be a little lacking on the sportsmanship side. Despite the fact the he was winning 11-6, he decided to tear off his mask and argue with the director over an off-target call (twice). I just lifted my mask and laughed at him.
I went on to lose the bout, but if that is the price of his ability then he can keep it. It's always a pleasure to fence against friendly and sportsmanlike opponents, especially in team matches, and I don't understand those few who ignore the principles of common courtesy completely.

[4stinkydogs]

It saddens me when such a beautiful sport is taken down to such a cruddy level. I know that the more my daughter fences, the less this will bother her (and me), but it sure seems like some sort of sanctions against the fencers/coaches who encourage this type of behaviour should be allowed. (I know no such thing exists, but that would certainly teach these youngsters/coaches to start behaving themselves if their entire team got a yellow card!) It makes me grind my teeth!