Fencing.Net - Your Guide to Fencing & Fencing Equipment

Mr.Piccolo22 · 01-07-2003, 02:15 PM

I was wondering if anyone had to re-panel (remove the old conductive layer and put on a new one) their lame? If so what material did you use and is it cost effective instead of purchasing a new lame? So, far I came across a material call silk organza. Considering this mater can I even use it for competition? Thanks for your help in advance.

DHCJr · 01-07-2003, 02:24 PM

First of all is the material you found conductive and silk does not sound very durable. If it is over 1 ohm over two points apart, I would stay away from using it, because you also have to consider seams and wear and tear, which will raise the resistance. You can get Lame material from most of the major suppliers, especially those that make their own lame. One warning, if you go with a vendor that sells lame made of 'space-age', composite or other material, make sure what you have is compatable.

It is not cheap. I believe it is around $75.00 a running foot. Considering the cost, why are you replacing a whole panel and not just patch an area. If the lame is so bad that you are needing to replace a whole panel, the whole thing must be in poor shape.

The other thought is this made with standard stainless steel lame material or one of the composites. There are some of the composites that the conductive is just on the surface and not woven in. Those do go bad a panel at a time.

Mr.Piccolo22 · 01-07-2003, 02:47 PM

Major reason why I am replacing a panel it that the lame has too many dead spots for it too pass. I was planning on buying a new one, however, I have a tendency to take things apart and see if I can repair them. (Friends keep telling to become armorer because of this habit.) In any case, I figured I would try repairing it and in the worst-case scenario I would break down and buy a new lame.

DHCJr · 01-07-2003, 03:08 PM

That is a very good reason. If it was a few dead spots, I would patch them up individually. But, hopefully next time, you will catch it a little sooner.

If you do want to become an Armorer or just learn how to fix your own equipment, you are very close to New Jersey. You could learn from Joe Byrnes, Ted Li or any of the others there.

sallearmourer · 01-08-2003, 10:32 PM

For 50.00 to 75.00 me or Bill Hall will put a new front panal on a lame depends on the amount of lame matiealused the strander lame mat is over 100.00 a yard.

Tim Loomis
Ye Olde Armourer

DHCJr · 01-09-2003, 01:43 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by sallearmourer
For 50.00 to 75.00 me or Bill Hall will put a new front panal on a lame depends on the amount of lame matiealused the strander lame mat is over 100.00 a yard.

Tim Loomis
Ye Olde Armourer

Considering it would take at least 2 feet to do a front panel, the cost would be at least $120.00 plus shipping and I just checked the American Fencing Web Site where they have Stainless Steel Lame for $110.00, I don't think that would be a cost effective option for Mr. Piccollo.

sallearmourer · 01-09-2003, 11:04 PM

Since me and bill hall have done more lame repairs and replacement of panels then you have ever done DHCJR. You don't no what the Hades you are talking about. So before shooting off your mouth Donald and attacking my business and other vendors business as you have done in the pass. I don't have the foggest were you are coming up with your prices but the last time I got lame mat it's 100.00 a yard or meter. retail price.

By the way you can get a new foil lame from BG for 65.00

Tim

Ye Olde Armourer

***Craig*** · 01-10-2003, 10:31 AM

I don't think anyone was attacking anyone else's business. Maybe Donald got the pricing wrong, but I'm guessing that he is basing it on the pricing he found vs. the pricing you get/quoted.

Either way, a new lame can be purchased for the amount of a repair, the relative quality of each is up for debate (since the $65 BG lame won't last as long as good stainless lame material).

To get the full quality assessment and make the most educated repair vs. buy decision I think information on the threadcounts/density and material composition would be needed.

Cheers,
Craig

Purple Fencer · 01-10-2003, 12:10 PM

Down, Tim....down....

DHCJr · 01-10-2003, 12:46 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by sallearmourer
Since me and bill hall have done more lame repairs and replacement of panels then you have ever done DHCJR. You don't no what the Hades you are talking about. So before shooting off your mouth Donald and attacking my business and other vendors business as you have done in the pass. I don't have the foggest were you are coming up with your prices but the last time I got lame mat it's 100.00 a yard or meter. retail price.

By the way you can get a new foil lame from BG for 65.00

Tim

Ye Olde Armourer

Tim,

I got the price I quoted from you. I was not attacking your business. I was just stating that for what Mr. Piccolo wanted was not cost affective. He wanted the full panel, which I assumed was the front panel, to be replaced. From your e-mail you stated was $50 - $75 plus material, which I feel is reasonable. I am estimating the amount of material needed for the front panel would be at least a running 2 feet (2/3 Yard). From that I came up with the $110.00. I was saying that would be more cost effective to buy a whole new lame at $100 or $65, then to have one repaired for $110. Below are my figures based on what you supplied, not on the figures I gave.

Material (2/3 Yd, based on $100/Yd) $66.67
Labor (I will take your low amount) $50.00
$116.67

I rounded this to $120. I was just stating for Mr. Piccolo and what he wanted, he was better off buying a new lame. I have seen Bill Hall’s work on replacing sabre bibs and I recommend him all the time. For replacing a bib, I find that is cost effective. I do not find spending more to have something repaired, than what it would cost to get a brand new one. If my figures above, based on what you stated, are wrong, let me know. Remember, Tim I have done this for a while too. The first time we met almost 20 years ago, I had already been Head Armorer for an International event. I know what I am talking about and I have done a lot of lame repairs.

Your English was so bad, I had trouble understanding it and as I said I’ve known you for almost 20 years. I was just trying to explain what you were saying for others, especially Mr. Piccolo. You gave the figures; I just added them up for Mr. Piccolo.

sallearmourer · 01-10-2003, 05:46 PM

The price stated Don was 50.00 to 75.00 which includeds labor and material. The total cost would be $50.00 to 75.00 to replace the whole front panel depending on the size of the lame. If the lame fit him well and he like the feel of it. We do this all the time for pepole. I saw my wife take in a saber lame to fit a customer in 20 minutes at a event. By the way I use uhlmann lame mat and not cheaper stuff

Tim

I choose not to work internatioal event or national event between 1975 and 1984 because I was training and shooting intenatioal trap and skeet trying to make the 80 and 84 Olympic team. I did local and division stuff when in country and not training. If you think fencing is expensive my shotguns were 7,000 apiece back then for internatioal shooting.

Tim

DHCJr · 01-10-2003, 06:09 PM

I'm sorry, your original post was confusing. I didn't understand and there may have been others who didn't also. I know you repair reels for $25.00 + parts and how you wrote it, the repair on lames appeared to be the same. I stand corrected, but the run on words confused me. If you had done this last post, I'm sure there would have been no confusion. It is very clear and precise.

I appologize and thank you for clearing that up.

sallearmourer · 01-10-2003, 07:52 PM

Donald,

Most of the pepole in this forum knows that I have a sever learning disiability and therefore I have problems with writing.

But I have with hard work earned a Master Degree in PE.

Tim

Mr.Piccolo22 · 01-13-2003, 04:12 PM

Wow, I go away for a weekend and this is what transpires.

Thank you all for your responses. I am going to break down and buy a new one. It was my very first lame and I didn't want to part with it. It was the first car syndrome that kicked in for me. However, like I stated before, I like fixing things, and it would give me practice on lame repairs. And that would by one less fencer that would come to you and say: "I don't know what's wrong with it and I have a bout in two minutes. Can you fix it?" LOL, I know that has happend to me. One day I will be able to chat with you about all the horror stories that armorers all have.

Untill Next Time!

Mr. Piccolo

Wizardly · 04-27-2008, 02:08 PM

There is an implicit question in all of this: where does one buy lame material without buying a new lame?

Purple Fencer · 04-27-2008, 03:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wizardly

There is an implicit question in all of this: where does one buy lame material without buying a new lame?

Unfortunately, unless you have access to a manufactuer, you're limited to buying from a vendor who has access....there are some armorers who have been trying to find out where some places get their lame material for years with no succcess.....

D'Art · 04-27-2008, 03:54 PM

Jeezo, talk about thread necromancing......

fencerbill · 04-27-2008, 09:11 PM

The content of Tim's post is accurate, we who know and love him have learned to translate the words into the message.

Patching the dead spots on a Foil Lame front is like whistling past a graveyard or trying to hold back the tide. I have done it but not any more.

I liken a dead spot on a Lame to the tip of an iceberg. Sure you can cover up what's dead this week. But with a month's worth of further use, the additional hits will cause the dead spot to grow out from under the patch.

Putting on successive patches is fine if you like to swindle people. They will be back in a few weeks to need a larger patch.

What I do, which is quite likely pretty close to what the Loomis family does, is to add a new front panel which I put on over the old conductive fabric. It goes from collar to croissard and from the front zipper to about 2 inches past the side seam on the weapon side. This covers about 90% of where all the hits land.

I like to say that it will increase the useful lifetime of the Lame jacket by about 80%, almost double. I only recommend it for stainless Lames, I use stainless Lame fabric. I don't think it is very worthwhile for the exotic types of Lame fabric. I don't have enough experience with them to judge how long it will last after repair.

The wear pattern for Foil Lames is rather uniform, the front middle. That is not true for Sabre Lames. Sabre Lames usually deteriorate pretty much all over. Under the glove, the armpits, there is no most likely place where it goes bad. Because of the sleeves, they are much harder to work on. The only Sabre Lames I fix are my own. Don't know about Tim.

DHCjr was pessimistic in his cost analysis. The Lame fabric I get is about 58 inches wide and I wish I could still get if for $100 a yard length. You can do a number of Foil Lames for one yard.

If a good stainless Foil Lame costs $100 or more, it is cost effective to get it repaired in this way. Not sure I would recommend it for a $65 Lame.

Mergs · 04-28-2008, 07:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr.Piccolo22

.... snip....I have a tendency to take things apart and see if I can repair them. (Friends keep telling to become armorer because of this habit.) In any case, I figured I would try repairing it and in the worst-case scenario I would break down and buy a new lame.

If this is so, then a way to get you started is to follow the link in my sig line!

Robert Smith · 04-28-2008, 01:07 PM

I bought lamé fabric a couple of years or so ago from http://www.marktek-inc.com/ - same people, I believe, who supplied fabric for Infinity lamés. At the time, it was around $50 per yard; 1.5 yards was sufficient for construction of one lamé.

As to how a foil lamé dies, fencerbill is spot on for death by the sword; I kill mine by perspiration power. Doing it this way typically starts with the area around and under the bib and works its way down, with particular attention to armpits. The lower back and the front V are the only areas that aren't heavily affected.

Trouble is, by the time you start experiencing dead spots on the front panel, resistance is building on the side panels too, and probably over the backs of the shoulders.

I'd suggest that before you replace the front panel, you assess the rest of the lamé for resistance too. Not much good having a nice new front panel if the side panels are near death.

I still have thread, by the way, if you want to turn it into a serviceable club lamé. Just follow my sig line...