Q: Competition- Ethics, Honor, Etiquette

[Artisan]

Q: Competition- Ethics, Honor, Etiquette
short version: do you acknowlege touches (especially if the ref is bad)
Alternate version: What would James Bond do?

Much has been said and written about both the history and lore of fencing, often in the context of the perennially contested debate of "Classical vs. Modern" fencing. I thought I knew well where I stood on the thorny comparisons betweeen the two, as well as my personal expectations and objectives regarding my participation and competition in the "Modern" sport, and the relative importance of "winning" versus "playing the game" or "honoring the traditions"

However, recently in local competitions, situations arose which challenged my understanding. In our local events most if not all pool bouts are self officiated - and therefore - especially in Foil - subject to a wide range of ref's abilities & discrepancies. Since I am still quite a rookie I usually limit my participation to Time or Scorekeeping - at least until I become more confident of my reffing ability. In this environment the issue at hand (for me) is the acknowledgement of touches.

Epee is usually pretty straight forward, especially in the mucking-about local levels. FOIL officiating seems to be messy at almost any level - especially in pools by fellow competators.

In one case, while fencing Epee, my opponent went for a toe touch, and gets his light. The fencer reffing at the time couldn't tell if the touch was valid or hit the floor. At the Halt he asks, "Did he get you?" I had felt something on my ankle, but thought it might have been his blade wiping past as he recovered from hitting the floor just behind me. My immediate impulse was to say "I don't know" But when I looked down at my front ankle, see that my sock is puckered out like a small pup tent, and there are a pair of epee sized holes on either side - a veritable "entrance and exit wound set" I acknowlege the hit by pointing out the damaged sock and joke to my opponent that he owes me a sock. It was 4-4 and cost me the bout, and I was doing much better than expected - perhaps could have even beaten a much more experienced fencer. Later on I felt disappointed in myself for even considering at that moment that no one else is looking closely at my sock and I could deny the touch.

In another case, at foil, in pools, I'm being outfenced by a much better fencer. Its only 3-2 though - and I've worked hard to get my two touches - and he's earned his through my errors. I execute a beat attack, he counterattacks (foil is his second weapon - Epee his first). Ref calls "parry ripost" and I lose the touch. I politely ask about the touch, suggesting that it was my beat attack. My opponent is mute, and the ref says, "well...it looked like he started first" which doesn't explain much (except his confusion)- since it would then be my parry repost. I again look to my opponent, and can envision him behind his mask biting his tongue. I give the universal sagging shoulder shrug of dissappointment and resume on-guard. I am defeated 5-2. After the bout my opponent comes to me and lets me know that I was correct, the ref was in error. My response was along the lines of "well that goes with the territory in foil, gotta sell it to the ref..."

But of course in hindsight, the whole thing began to eat at me. I could have pointed out that he could have spoken up and acknowleged the touch. Did he tell me later because he felt bad that he didn't or was he trying to make me feel better about losing. In this case it was not close.
I've had the same thing happen when it did make a difference in the outcome of the bout, the seeding, and ultimately my placement at the end of the day.

- How many of you honestly acknowledge touches?
- Do you acknowledge in practice - but not in competition?
- If you acknowledge touches sometimes, does it vary depending on the level of competition - closeness of the bout, skill of the ref, or how badly you want to win?
- Is this the dimension of "deceit and treachery" that I was promised existed in Fencing?

The real questions though are; What is the ettiquette? And "Does the ettiquette change according to the situation?

The only advice I've gotten from a coach on the acknowledgement of touches was "Be carefull...It is but one tool to be used in 'managing' your referee'"

Thoughts?

-Art

[latenight]

In practice, I acknowledge.

In competition, I don't for two reasons.

1. I have had directors get mad at me for questioning their judgement. This does not help your cause on later touches.

2. Bad calls get made both ways, The only way to have it even out is to go with it.

just my experience.

[a517dogg]

i always let my opinion be known on whether a touch is floor or not floor, whether it was me or my opponent whos light was off. same thing for whether a touch was past or corps a corps.

[Artisan]

[b]In practice, I acknowledge.

In competition, I don't for two reasons.

1. I have had directors get mad at me for questioning their judgement. This does not help your cause on later touches.

2. Bad calls get made both ways, The only way to have it even out is to go with it.


I agree with you...and on the long run, bad calls tend to even them selves out. If you have a dedicated ref for the entire pool, there is an opportunity to make adjustments to your game if need be. But the emphasis of my point is focused on pool bouts that are self officiated, where each bout may have a different ref.

[BugabooX]

re foil parry-riposte in original posting here: I feel your pain. I also have been perturbed when my opponent took advantage of a bad call (and compounded my frustration by admitting it privately afterward).

But you've got to set rules, ethics and justifications aside, step back, and look at the bigger picture. Mistakes happen (purposefully or not). In the long run, over the course of your years of fencing experience, you'll benefit from as many odd calls as you'll be penalized. A wide perspective is required.

I have admitted many valid touches, and I've remained silent on a few myself. And sometimes you're really just not sure and want to leave it up to the ref to decide -- it's his job, after all.

Just be satisfied with your own actions. And don't dwell too long on any single touch, nor what *should* have happened -- it's over; move on. You'll sleep better at night.

[lochinvar]

I don't know if this is relevant to your question, but I had an interesting situation occur about 30 years ago when I was just beginning.

We were fencing saber, which at that time was not electric; touches were announced by two judges on either side of the contestant who watched the other person's target and shot a hand in the air if they saw a touch.

We were at the end of a phrase where I had attacked with deception but my opponent had successfully parried. The director called halt, and I looked about in confusion. One of my judges had his hand in the air, indicating that I had achieved a touch.

Now, both I and my opponent knew that my attack had failed, but the director polled both of my judges, one of whom thought he had seen the touch and the other reluctantly agreed. The touch was awarded, at which point I asked permission to remove my mask and emphatically told the ref that I had NOT touched my opponent, that my attack had been successfully parried.

The ref's answer? "Put your mask back on and fence. Touch is awarded, and in future don't ever call your judges liars again."

Being new to the sport, I was confused, but complied. The incident threw me off enough to lose the bout, and has lept to memory many times since. And ever since then, I ALWAYS acknowledge touchs that I know have landed, both in practice and in competition.

Whether the opponent does or not is a matter for his/her own conscience, and doesn't bother me either way. After all, it's just a game.

[haggis]

I had a similar experience to Lochinvar's when I was but a young pup making my first steps into competitive fencing. Both judges "saw" me hit my opponent with an attack when I knew I had been parried. The referee was about to award me the hit when I piped up that I hadn't hit. The referee looked at me sternly before replying along the lines of:" You fence, they judge and I referee. If we all stick to our jobs everyone will be a lot happier."

For a long time I pretty well stuck to that point of view. Opponents would sometimes acknowledge hits on themselves while I would remain resolutely mute if a bad decision went in my favour (my silence was swiftly broken if a bad decision went against me and when appealling for hits with a semi-broken-voiced squeal). However, I eventually realised that at weaker events if the fencers didn't acknowledge hits when an inexperienced referee (or fellow competitor) was in charge then the competition was mayhem and I started to acknowledge hits at this level of event. The referees felt more comfortable in their own abilities if I assisted by acknowledging hits and most opponents got the idea too. Gradually this trend of ackowledging hits expanded to bigger competitions provided I was reasonably sure that my opponent would do the same. Referees at all levels make mistakes and if both fencers are willing to sacrifice a hit that they know they haven't earned when they know their opponent will then peace generally reigns.

I suppose my position on this isn't really an honorable one (after all , if I know my opponent would rather sell his Granny than acknowledge a hit, I'll generally return to silence, provided the ref is competent), at least it is non-antagonistic, helps the competition run smoothly and let's me sleep at nights knowing that if I'm not one of the good guys at least I'm not one of the baddies.

[epeefencer74]

Fencing epee, it's invariable that I sometimes hit the floor outside of the piste. I will always acknowledge a floor hit to the ref, be it in a friendly or in competition.

[remise]

I only fence epee. During my second tournament, I found myself across from a young fencer whose mom was watching us. We attacked simultaneously. My attempt at a toe touch failed, but my blade hit the floor, producing a light. My opponent tried the same thing, and the ref was unclear if she'd hit me before hitting the floor.

Call me a chicken or a coward or what you will, but all I'll ever remember is looking across the room and seeing the look on the face of this young girls's mom in the audience. It's one of those things where, for an instant, time stands still. No sound, no movement, everything freezes. I understood implicitly in that instant, what I was about to do and why, and was interrupted by the voice of the ref,"Well?" "Give her the touch,"I said,"She got me on the ankle."

Later on, I remember her mom telling her,"Get your stuff and let's go. You should have done much better today. You wasted my time."

My son had been taking photos during the bout, and scrolled back to the action in question. "Look, ma, are you blind? She wasn't anywhere near you. Here's her tip, way over there." When I explained, my son only got more frustrated. His competitive nature is apparently more robust than mine. "You need to spend more time in the armory, then. The strip is not the place to get wussy." Which, I suppose. goes back to my earlier post. Anyway, I DO have a tendency to melt if I know my opponent has his or her feet held to the coals by someone if they lose a bout because I don't think that's what the sport should be about. So I'm a wus. Sue me.

[Capt. Slo-mo]

Originally posted by remise

Later on, I remember her mom telling her,"Get your stuff and let's go. You should have done much better today. You wasted my time."

Anybody remember the old series "Branded"? In the opening sequence each week, the main character had a military ceremony where all his badges and insignia were ripped off his uniform and he was banished from the fort.

Parents like these should have a similar ceremony. Their camcorders need to be ceremoniously stripped of tape, their copy of "Getting Your Kid to the Olympics Through Psychological Abuse" by (insert your favorite shrieking European coach here) shredded into confetti, and their mini-van keys bent into an illegal epee camber before being drummed out of the venue.

[edew]

Agreed. Such comments are totally uncalled for.

[135711]

several lessons here, and questions:

should the ref have asked one of the fencers to analyze the movement for him/her?

should the fencer be over-generous to an opponent? [opps, sounds like me]

should the 'stage mother' be spanked? maybe we should make all stage mothers fence a few bouts with someone really good for a while......

did anyone see this months' issue; the woman who went to germany and gave a nazi salute? what's the story there? was she a nazi? i've met many mothers like this in the past, it's very pitiful and embarrassing for the kids, 'you've wasted my time', what else would you be doing? shouldn't you be spending it with your child? or did you mean, your money, did you resent spending a few dollars on your kid? if so, don't waste HIS time, and let him wait until he's a teenager and can flip burgers for a few months for a few foils. people should be licensed to have children.

ps. i have been told time and again, that fencers should not acknowledge a touch, which is very difficult, because during practice.....what do we practice? acknowledging touches.[half the time we're wrong anyway]
let's break that habit, and make those Directors work for their money!!! Fencers have the option of protesting a call, in a dignified manner.

[Slavheart]

I always acknowledge touches made against me, especially when it's not clear and anyone reffing or judging is open to input from the fencers. I leave it to the honesty, character, and good sportsmanship of my opponent to do the same. If he/she doesn't, it's only a reflection on them and I try not to let it upset me or affect anything about me or my game.

[swordsen]

As an epeeist who (when I was faster) scored many a point on foot shots I will always acknowledge a foot hit when on an ungrounded strip. (at least untill an opponent fails to do so for me) Generally it works out and we both call the hits.

[Chris]

Originally posted by Artisan
Q: Competition- Ethics, Honor, Etiquette
short version: do you acknowlege touches (especially if the ref is bad)
Alternate version: What would James Bond do?

Since when is James Bond a nice guy?!?
Look in a couple of the early movies; he does some fairly nasty stuff.

Much has been said and written about...the relative importance of "winning" versus "playing the game" or "honoring the traditions"...

In one case, while fencing Epee, my opponent went for a toe touch, and gets his light. The fencer reffing at the time couldn't tell if the touch was valid or hit the floor. At the Halt he asks, "Did he get you?" I had felt something on my ankle, but thought it might have been his blade wiping past as he recovered from hitting the floor just behind me. My immediate impulse was to say "I don't know" But when I looked down at my front ankle, see that my sock is puckered out like a small pup tent, and there are a pair of epee sized holes on either side - a veritable "entrance and exit wound set" I acknowlege the hit by pointing out the damaged sock and joke to my opponent that he owes me a sock. It was 4-4 and cost me the bout, and I was doing much better than expected - perhaps could have even beaten a much more experienced fencer. Later on I felt disappointed in myself for even considering at that moment that no one else is looking closely at my sock and I could deny the touch.

Well, it's really all a question of personal standards, and integrity!

In the gold medal bout of a tournament last year, I fleched by my opponent, parrying his riposte, as I did; on my follow-through, I hit the ungrounded piste, right behind his leg, and the ref' was going to award touch. Now I was DOWN 13-10 at the time, and really wanted to win, but taking a point I knew I didn't deserve would be stealing, not winning. After all, if all I cared about was having a trophy on my shelf, I could just as easily trot down to the trophy store, and have them make one up for me. It would cost a lot less than going to Kansas City, and taken a lot less time, since the trophy store is only 2 miles from my house!

Besides, it would seem that your opponent and/or your ref' might just as easily noticed the hole in your sock, so trying to deny it might have resulted in the same score, with the added bonus of letting them know you'll try to cheat, if you think you can get away with it.

A lot of people really do notice who does this, AND who DOESN'T.

In another case, at foil, in pools, I'm being outfenced by a much better fencer. Its only 3-2 though - and I've worked hard to get my two touches - and he's earned his through my errors. I execute a beat attack, he counterattacks (foil is his second weapon - Epee his first). Ref calls "parry ripost" and I lose the touch. I politely ask about the touch, suggesting that it was my beat attack. My opponent is mute, and the ref says, "well...it looked like he started first" which doesn't explain much (except his confusion)- since it would then be my parry repost.

I again look to my opponent, and can envision him behind his mask biting his tongue. I give the universal sagging shoulder shrug of dissappointment and resume on-guard. I am defeated 5-2. After the bout my opponent comes to me and lets me know that I was correct, the ref was in error. My response was along the lines of "well that goes with the territory in foil, gotta sell it to the ref..."

But of course in hindsight, the whole thing began to eat at me. I could have pointed out that he could have spoken up and acknowleged the touch.

It would seem that your mistake, here was not asking for a complete rendering of the phrase.
If he can't explain it, then he may well have not understood it.

As for your opponent not contradicting the ref', well, he may have felt he wasn't really any better at the priority thing than the ref' and didn't want to challange the guy's skills; maybe he thought you'd win, anyway, since you SAID, you made the mistakes that led to his touches.

Frankly, you'd have a better case if you'd actually scored more touches after that.

Did he tell me later because he felt bad that he didn't or was he trying to make me feel better about losing. In this case it was not close.
I've had the same thing happen when it did make a difference in the outcome of the bout, the seeding, and ultimately my placement at the end of the day.

- How many of you honestly acknowledge touches?
- Do you acknowledge in practice - but not in competition?
- If you acknowledge touches sometimes, does it vary depending on the level of competition - closeness of the bout, skill of the ref, or how badly you want to win?
- Is this the dimension of "deceit and treachery" that I was promised existed in Fencing?

Well, in foil, (and sabre, too), while standards vary, it's generally kind of understood that, regretably, SOME mistakes will be made, and it's really a question of how big of a fuss one decides to make (and thinks they can get away with). In the situation you describe, your expectations should be fairly low.

In such a situation, one might fairly expect that another mistake may be made, thus "balancing things out", on the other hand, (although it can be a nice gesture to try to acknowledge) a referee is, by no means, bound to accept an acknowledgement, which could, in fact, be wrong.

The real questions though are; What is the ettiquette? And "Does the ettiquette change according to the situation?

The only advice I've gotten from a coach on the acknowledgement of touches was "Be carefull...It is but one tool to be used in 'managing' your referee'"

Thoughts?

-Art

As I said before, some people will take offense if you communicate that you disagree with their call, regardless of what side you are on.

On the other hand, sometimes people think one thing, and say another, especially when they are tired, so it shouldn't be a problem to ask them to repeat what they said, and describe the action.

As for the 'deception and treachery' you've heard of, well, no, this is probably an 'honest' mistake. The deception means to hide your intent from your opponent; to start an action which looks like one thing, but ends in a different result.

As for 'treachery', well, even if the guy was favoring your opponent, it's pretty minor league compared to some of the stuff that used to go on in international fencing.

Have a nice day!

[Catal]

Originally posted by Chris
As I said before, some people will take offense if you communicate that you disagree with their call, regardless of what side you are on.


Have you tried communicating with your foot? Stick it through the judge's head; that'll fix everything... everything .

[Inquartata]

I have been told that in you should acknowledge a one-lighter or two, just to establish in the referee's perception that you are a fair and honorable competitor...and so that you will get the benefit of any doubt when you don't acknowledge. That seems pretty close to "deception" to me.

[Mo]

Originally posted by Inquartata
I have been told that in you should acknowledge a one-lighter or two, just to establish in the referee's perception that you are a fair and honorable competitor...and so that you will get the benefit of any doubt when you don't acknowledge. That seems pretty close to "deception" to me.

I've seen people do this and usually the ref looks annoyed and gives him the LOOK AT THE BOX YOU IDIOT look. It would seem to make them think you are behaving in a pecksniffian manner.
(I got the pecksniffian out of the thesaurus tonight while looking up Sanctimonious!) WHAT A WORD!!!

[remise]

Forget the ref. Its the other parents that scare the heck out of me.

[Spanky McFarland]

Not quite the same thing, but in the last 8 of the Scottish Championships last year, my opponent smacked me in the middle of the chest, and it came up off target. It turned out that my lame was bald, but the referee couldn't give the hit. On the next point I lowered my guard and let him hit me.

At the time I was leading 10-8, and went on to win 15-10. I'd like to think I would have done the same thing had it been 14-14, as it was clearly a valid hit that he deserved. I can't honestly say if I would have done it, though, as I'd never reached the last 4 in this tournament before.