Contradictory Rules

[DHCJr]

Page 30 it is. There are more out there for all three of the rules threads I started.

I could start an error thread, but hopefully before the next season they come out with a new Rulebook, Athlete's Handbook and Operations Manual and we can see how they have done in correcting the errors in the current versions.

As I repeatedly say, know and understand the rules.

[Alexander Kai]

So why is one measured in inches and the other in centimeters?

[DHCJr]

So why is one measured in inches and the other in centimeters?

I actually asked that question also. When they first restricting blade 'length' for Youth fencers, they just said it had to be a 2 or a 0 blade. The problem with that is it was unenforcable. What is a 2 blade? It is a blade with a 2 on it. Suppose I took a full-length blade and stamped a 2 on it. Is it legal? According to the above rule it is.

I kept pushing that they put an actual length. I suggested 83 centimeters. I did not separate out the Sabre, because I wanted to suggest something simple. Put a piece of tape 83 cm from each end, if the blade go over it is too long. The response was that the parents would not understand metric, so they went with inches and since a full-length blade is 35” (Don’t look at me, check what they say on page 16.) a 2 would be 3” shorter. They also have listed the smallest blade as being 30” which is over 2” off. As you know, there is only one Industrial Nation and some Third World countries that still use the old British system of weight and measures as their standard.

The British have a similar rule, but they went with 825 mm for a Foil/Epee 2 blade and 820 for Sabre.

[DHCJr]

If you used the FIE penalty chart you would eliminate a fencer that had to replace their lamé, which did not have the name and country code. No warning indicated, just elimination.

While T.45.4 says they are not eliminated until the next round and they haven't put the name and country code on.

[oiuyt]

Not contradictory, but interesting (to me), is that the special case described by DHC only applies to failures of an electric jacket. If an epeeist needs to replace his or her jacket due to failure (e.g., hole punched in it) there's no grace period before which he or she needs to have name and country code present.

-B

[DHCJr]

Not contradictory, but interesting (to me), is that the special case described by DHC only applies to failures of an electric jacket. If an epeeist needs to replace his or her jacket due to failure (e.g., hole punched in it) there's no grace period before which he or she needs to have name and country code present.

-B

Actually, I find it strange that Sabre is not included. I does not talk about something like holes. It uses the word non-conforming. From other rules (T.43.1.d, T.45.3.a.ii) I take it this to mean it does not fit.

I wonder if T.45.1 and T.45.2 might be applied for your case. T.45.1 only is affect when the fencer appears on the piste. Maybe later on if they have to change their jacket it does not matter.
When during a bout an irregularity is found in the equipment which could be caused by conditions during the bout:
the Referee will apply neither warning nor penalty and any hit scored with the equipment which has become defective will be awarded.

It is an interesting thoght. What does the referee does if you get a hole in the jacket?
Also T.45.2 When during a bout an irregularity is found in the equipment which
could be caused by conditions during the bout:

[downunder]

I wonder if T.45.1 and T.45.2 might be applied for your case.

Nope, if you're missing your name at world championships it's a black card, with the exception Brad quoted, see t.45.4 in FIE rules. t45.2 is saying that if there is a problem with equipment that could be caused during the fight you won't be carded for it.

If there is a hole in the jacket during the fencing the referee calls halt, confiscates jacket and fencer goes and gets another one.

[Purple Fencer]

Nope, if you're missing your name at world championships it's a black card, with the exception Brad quoted, see t.45.4 in FIE rules. t45.2 is saying that if there is a problem with equipment that could be caused during the fight you won't be carded for it.

If there is a hole in the jacket during the fencing the referee calls halt, confiscates jacket and fencer goes and gets another one.

Will time be allowed for stencilling...or will a pass be given on that one for the immediate bout? (presuming stencilling is done after that bout's finished...and you have time to get it set)

[DHCJr]

Nope, if you're missing your name at world championships it's a black card, with the exception Brad quoted, see t.45.4 in FIE rules. t45.2 is saying that if there is a problem with equipment that could be caused during the fight you won't be carded for it.

If there is a hole in the jacket during the fencing the referee calls halt, confiscates jacket and fencer goes and gets another one.

Well what do you consider a hole in a Uniform. How did it happen? Did it suddenly appear or could it be caused during the fight? Brad and I were saying the same thing. I just happened to list the rule that had the exception. T.45.4 shows no exception. T.45.2 is the exception.

[downunder]

Will time be allowed for stencilling...or will a pass be given on that one for the immediate bout? (presuming stencilling is done after that bout's finished...and you have time to get it set)

Well what do you consider a hole in a Uniform. How did it happen? Did it suddenly appear or could it be caused during the fight? Brad and I were saying the same thing. I just happened to list the rule that had the exception. T.45.4 shows no exception. T.45.2 is the exception.

Hi guys,

Maybe I'm misunderstanding you but....

I'm not disputing Brad... It's a really good one I hadn't noticed. It doesn't make sense that it only applies to the conductive jacket and I'm sure this was an oversight rather than intentional.

PF: To the letter of the law, no time would be allowed for a re-stencil in epee, only foil and sabre. Hopefully common sense would be applied.

DHC: how it happens doesn't matter. During a match an item of clothing that was conforming, is no longer conforming. It is confiscated. The fencer is not penalised for this. However if then they come on guard with a replacement that is also not conforming then they're in some sort of trouble. The exception is t.45.5. The requirement for names/logos is point 4.

[Purple Fencer]

Hi guys,
Hopefully common sense would be applied.

Well...there's your problem!

[DHCJr]

Hi guys,

Maybe I'm misunderstanding you but....

I'm not disputing Brad... It's a really good one I hadn't noticed. It doesn't make sense that it only applies to the conductive jacket and I'm sure this was an oversight rather than intentional.

PF: To the letter of the law, no time would be allowed for a re-stencil in epee, only foil and sabre. Hopefully common sense would be applied.

DHC: how it happens doesn't matter. During a match an item of clothing that was conforming, is no longer conforming. It is confiscated. The fencer is not penalised for this. However if then they come on guard with a replacement that is also not conforming then they're in some sort of trouble. The exception is t.45.5. The requirement for names/logos is point 4.

What I was talking about originally was a lamé that was never conforming. i.e. it didn't fit. If a fencer shows up at the beginning of a bout with one that does not fit, he has until the next round to get the one that fits to put on name and country. Nothing about holes.

[downunder]

What I was talking about originally was a lamé that was never conforming. i.e. it didn't fit. If a fencer shows up at the beginning of a bout with one that does not fit, he has until the next round to get the one that fits to put on name and country. Nothing about holes.

A lame with holes in it doesn't conform to the rules, obviously.

I'm not sure why you think it's exclusive to a lame that doesn't fit. This is not a correct interpretation of the rules.

Well...there's your problem!

It'd probably be more of a problem at a local level, if you want to see common sense go out the window at a world championships just wait until they put an Isreali, an Iranian and a Syrian in the same poule.... Fun times.

[DHCJr]

A lame with holes in it doesn't conform to the rules, obviously.

I'm not sure why you think it's exclusive to a lame that doesn't fit. This is not a correct interpretation of the rules.

You are right, I read into T.45.5 too much. It is for Foil and Sabre lamé. If they show up on the piste with it non-conforming they have until the next round to fix the new lamé. I get that T.45.5 is about size from T.43.1.b and d.

Since they don't look at fit for Epee.

[downunder]

You are right, I read into T.45.5 too much. It is for Foil and Sabre lamé. If they show up on the piste with it non-conforming they have until the next round to fix the new lamé. I get that T.45.5 is about size from T.43.1.b and d.

Since they don't look at fit for Epee.

I'm confused if that means you think that 45.5 only applies to lames that don't fit. This is not the case.

[DHCJr]

I'm confused if that means you think that 45.5 only applies to lames that don't fit. This is not the case.

Explain. Why did they make this new rule (May 2007) just for the Electric Jacket? Everything, but the fit is checked in Control? This rules does specify pool as one of the times that it is specified and if it was conductivity that is covered by T.45.2 as well as tears. What other items are not checked at Control?

[downunder]

Explain. Why did they make this new rule (May 2007) just for the Electric Jacket? Everything, but the fit is checked in Control? This rules does specify pool as one of the times that it is specified and if it was conductivity that is covered by T.45.2 as well as tears. What other items are not checked at Control?

You really misunderstand. This rule has nothing to do with weapons control.

Previous to this rule, if your lame failed for any reason on the piste and you didn't have one that had the correct name on it you would be red carded at World Cup events and black carded at World Championships.

This rule means you have a round to go and get a new one printed. At competitions where there is no printing (say in Baku) the FIE have unofficially relaxed this requirement.

The mistake in the rule is that this only applies to foil and sabre - where in fact this situation could easily happen in epee too.

t.45.2 doesn't mean you wouldn't be penalised for the new lame, it means you wouldn't be penalised for the old lame/weapon/bodywire.