2010 USACFC format

[mrbiggs]

Hey all,


anyone know the format for USACFCs this year? I assume it's the same as it has been, so I know the general idea, but I can't find any specifics on the website.

In particular I'd like to know the details of when and how fencers can be substituted.

[erooMynohtnA]

Same as it has been, decided on the first day of competition.

[catwood1]

I'm 99% sure of the following:*
1) There is no one on this board that knows the answer.
2) There is no one that knows the answer.
3) No one WILL know the answer until check in closes.
4) If you're lucky, maybe the day before...

*The only reason its not 100%, is because with USACFCs, nothing is 100%...

[KD5MDK]

You have failed to account for the answer changing after checkin closes.

[epeemike81]

You have failed to account for the answer changing after checkin closes.

Don't forget them shoehorning in teams that aren't present at the start of the competition.

-m

[mrbiggs]

OK, in all fairness, this all happened three years ago. (Right?)


Maybe I was too general for fencing.net. Simpler version:

1. Was the format the same for the last three years? I believe the answer to this question is yes but I was not there so if someone who was wishes to share...

2. What were the rules for substitutions for these past yeaers?

Same as it has been, decided on the first day of competition.

I'm 99% sure of the following:*
1) There is no one on this board that knows the answer.
2) There is no one that knows the answer.
3) No one WILL know the answer until check in closes.
4) If you're lucky, maybe the day before...

*The only reason its not 100%, is because with USACFCs, nothing is 100%...

You have failed to account for the answer changing after checkin closes.

[LordShout]

OK, in all fairness, this all happened three years ago. (Right?)


Maybe I was too general for fencing.net. Simpler version:

1. Was the format the same for the last three years? I believe the answer to this question is yes but I was not there so if someone who was wishes to share...

2. What were the rules for substitutions for these past yeaers?

Every year I have gone to CFC's there has been some form of last minute rules changing. Last year it was the insertion of Bruce Capin's (Like omg a officer, who would guess his team might end up with special rights) Men's Sabre squad in for the second day despite them not having fenced on the first day.

[mrbiggs]

Every year I have gone to CFC's there has been some form of last minute rules changing. Last year it was the insertion of Bruce Capin's (Like omg a officer, who would guess his team might end up with special rights) Men's Sabre squad in for the second day despite them not having fenced on the first day.

OK, yes, I've heard about this.


However, it seems you were there. Do you know the rules for substitutions?

[LordShout]

Offhand I think it is:

No subs on day 1 round robin unless medical reason. Once someone is subbed out for injury they cannot fence again on (that day/at all). On day 2 I think you can do normal 9 bout first to five one bout in advance substitutions. But honestly I don't remember.

[mrbiggs]

Offhand I think it is:

No subs on day 1 round robin unless medical reason. Once someone is subbed out for injury they cannot fence again on (that day/at all). On day 2 I think you can do normal 9 bout first to five one bout in advance substitutions. But honestly I don't remember.

OK cool, thanks.

[MBalderson]

Offhand I think it is:

No subs on day 1 round robin unless medical reason. Once someone is subbed out for injury they cannot fence again on (that day/at all). On day 2 I think you can do normal 9 bout first to five one bout in advance substitutions. But honestly I don't remember.

This is incorrect as far as concerns the last two years.

On day 1 you may be subbed in and out. If you are subbed, you become ineligible for individuals later that day.

That is, this all presumes that they bother using the same "format" that they have done the last two years.

[Stormbringer]

Hmmm...

Admittedly, I am not familiar with the workings of the USACFC...

But, is there some specific reason why they don't use the formats and regulations used by, say, the USFA, or the NCAA, or even the HS leagues? Or even *slight* modifications thereof?

It seems like it would be much easier, and provide a service to both organizers and competitors, to have a consistent and demonstrated-to-work system in place...

[noodle]

Hmmm...

Admittedly, I am not familiar with the workings of the USACFC...

But, is there some specific reason why they don't use the formats and regulations used by, say, the USFA, or the NCAA, or even the HS leagues? Or even *slight* modifications thereof?

It seems like it would be much easier, and provide a service to both organizers and competitors, to have a consistent and demonstrated-to-work system in place...

none of those formats are conducive to a large team event which operates in the way it does with the goals that it has.

[Stormbringer]

none of those formats are conducive to a large team event which operates in the way it does with the goals that it has.

What, precisely, *are* the operational methods and goals to which your response alludes?

[noodle]

What, precisely, *are* the operational methods and goals your response to which your response alludes?

i'm not speaking in any official capacity, but this is the gist of it:

they want an event that allows for maximum participation, maximum diversity, and maximum recognition for participating schools.

maximum participation meaning they don't want to have a full team of 18 people travel across the country to fence 1 to 3 bouts per person (depending on format) and be out on the morning of the first day.

maximum diversity meaning that a team will get to fence teams that they don't usually see in their own area.

maximum recognition meaning that both good teams, squads and individuals get recognized, so that even developing teams have something to push for.

[MBalderson]

What, precisely, *are* the operational methods and goals your response to which your response alludes?

The general goal behind what the organizers generally try to do is to figure out the best way to find the best squad (for each of the 6 weapons), as well as 3 and 6 weapon teams.

That ends up meaning that there's a ton of fencing on day 1 to seed a day 2tableau by squad where all seeds are fenced out. Squad placements are awarded points towards the 3 and 6 weapon totals.

Overall, it makes USACFC much more confusing to people not accustomed to the format--and much more susceptible to year-by-year alterations because no one else runs a large-scale tournament with a format anywhere near theirs.*

*at least from what I've ever heard of

[MBalderson]

noodle beat me to it...and gave the other biggest reason for the existence of this organization in his post.

[griffindm]

What, precisely, *are* the operational methods and goals your response to which your response alludes?

I believe the goals include a substantial amount of fencing for schools that have traveled some distance to be there. The other options would be some kind of a team-based round-robin (way too long), or a traditional DE (w/or w/o repechage). The latter involves the requirement for some acceptable method of seeding. The current method for the past several seasons looks something like the latter, depending on your judgement on the seeding process. The first round is basically "pools" of weapon squads, which seed the second day.

The other "oddity" about the structure is the fencing out of all positions, which lengthens the day, but again provides more fencing, often between schools that seldom ever see each other.

The squad-based approach does reduce the team aspect of the event, as squads may be far from each other, and somewhat out of touch.

It's far from a perfect solution, but it meets a lot of its goals.

[mrbiggs]

This is incorrect as far as concerns the last two years.

On day 1 you may be subbed in and out. If you are subbed, you become ineligible for individuals later that day.

That is, this all presumes that they bother using the same "format" that they have done the last two years.

I asked around at the SYC yesterday, and this is the answer I got, although it is unofficial and subject to change as usual.

[Wafath]

I asked around at the SYC yesterday, and this is the answer I got, although it is unofficial and subject to change as usual.

What the sub rules have been since year 2: (and since year 4 for pool rounds):

You may substitute a fencer into any position, however:

- once a fencer fences that position (Foil B Strip, Epee C strip, whatever), they are forever locked in to that position, and may not fence any other position, even in the case of injury.

- anyone who has subbed (be it someone who started, or someone who subbed in later) is ineligible for individuals.

- For the tableau round, you may field any lineup, and sub as per NCAA rules. However, in theory, if a fencer fenced for a weapon in pools, they may not be used in another weapon. But I am not sure if this rule has ever been enforced.

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For format, I have heard:

- a round of pools into a tableau, as per the last 3 years.
- there will be three pools per weapon/gender.
- 32 teams promoted into a tableau, DE down to 16, all places fenced out in top 16.

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Please note that I am *not* an authoritative source.

W