Definition of a "Large Cant"

[peterlista]

You are right about Epee. But I didn't originally read the initial post as saying it was restricted to only Epee. I read it as more of Epee as an example.

In Foil, you will find several different sizes of guards. And for those who choose smaller than the max, the grip can exceed what I call the shadow of the guard.

But I agree, unlikely to be a preference for smaller than max size for Epee.

Fair enough, and as a side note, I have an 11.5 cm guard from Внити for my foil... I purchased it on a whim when I first started fencing, but now I really don't know the point of having such a large foil guard?

[chinbeard]

Fair enough, and as a side note, I have an 11.5 cm guard from Внити for my foil... I purchased it on a whim when I first started fencing, but now I really don't know the point of having such a large foil guard?

It keeps your sh*t from getting f*cked up.

[fatfencer]

the abstract reads as though there was only one direction they canted. For RH's for typically people can't down and to the left some.

I wonder if that paper actually talks about this?

[Superscribe]

the abstract reads as though there was only one direction they canted. For RH's for typically people can't down and to the left some.

I wonder if that paper actually talks about this?

I would like to point out that the direction in which you cant the blade has an infinite number of possiblities. Going down and to the left just tells you HOW to get to orient your tang/blade in that direction.

[Bonehead]

the abstract reads as though there was only one direction they canted. For RH's for typically people can't down and to the left some.

I wonder if that paper actually talks about this?

I have the paper in front of me right now.

8 participants, all right handed fencers and members of a university team.

Used different downward handle angles, 9, 15, 18, 21, and 24 since an earlier paper (Chang (2001b)) cited 9 and 15 were ideal, and another still (Sanders and McCormick 1993) said that 14-24 was ideal for injury prevention.

The participants were asked to take a short lesson, and do some lunges against a board with accuracy being measured. The subject were also supposed to give a self report about their satisfaction.

Since there was only 8 people, some self report, and not really realistic fencing conditions I would say that the results are far from definitive...

[piste off]

Do you have a reference that says the grip going outside the guard is not legal?

You can have a guard that is as large as the inside diameter of the gabaret test apparatus. And the weapon must go through the test apparatus with the blade parallel to the axis of the test cylinder.

But if the guard diameter is smaller than the maximum allowed, the weapon can go through parallel to the axis while the grip does extend beyond the guard.

This is a very good point. Technically, I think you are correct.

I always use the guard as a guide (for maximum cant), but we should always keep in mind the ultimate test (gabaret apparatus).

R-

[chinbeard]

How can we tell if it's legal without any special devices?

[SJCFU#2]

How can we tell if it's legal without any special devices?

Here's one quick and dirty method (not ideal but probably accurate enough for most epeeist who aren't competing internationally):

Set the weapon on a flat table. Place some form of blocking on either side of the guard in order to keep it from rotating while still allowing it to rest on the table (finally - a use for those college text books!). Place other blocking (more books!) underneath the blade, lifting it up so that it is parallel with the table top. Rotate the guard, all the while taking care to be sure that the blade remains parallel with the table top. If the grip extends beyond the edge of the guard it will lift the grip from the top of the table as your rotate it. So long as the guard remains sitting on the table it should be legal.

The problem with this approach is that it assumes that your guard is legal to begin with - which may necessarily be the case with a deformed guard. However checking the legality of a guard requires at least a decent sized set of calipers, and a full gabarit to do it properly. As such it's not likely to become an issue unless the deformation is obvious to the naked eye.

[fencerbill]

There are a couple of secondary factors which may become significant. Some guards are almost cylindrical near their base. If you cant the blade significantly (try saying that aloud 5 times quickly) then this cylinder can become skewed from the axis of the blade. It depends on whether you shaped the front profile of the grip, whether the shoulders of the blade above the tang are orthogonal, and even how you tightened everything together.

So if you take a cylinder (short cylinder at the base of the guard) and you try to slide it through a long test cylinder, it doesn't take much tilt of the guard before it binds. Watching the equipment control personnel testing Epees (and Foils) on a gabaret, what they usually do is put the guard into the cylinder and then try to make the blade coaxial to the cylinder and see if it moves freely. The guard itself is legal but that guard mounted on that weapon (with the canted tang) is not legal.

Passing on some advice from Ted Li (one of the two and a half demigods of American armoring), if you are having trouble passing a Gabaret test with an Epee because the guard is no longer round or even flared, roll it on the floor. Had some experience with a rather informal equipment control at one Vets World Championships where we just kept rolling the guards on the floor until they passed (or at least until the accommodating SEMI rep got tired of failing them).

[Rockstar44]

Do you have a reference that says the grip going outside the guard is not legal?

Not exactly, but this:

m.4

2. The grip must be able to pass through the same gauge as the guard.

You can have a guard that is as large as the inside diameter of the gabaret test apparatus. And the weapon must go through the test apparatus with the blade parallel to the axis of the test cylinder.

With a standard sized epee bell this would preclude the grip extending beyond the edge of the bell.

But if the guard diameter is smaller than the maximum allowed, the weapon can go through parallel to the axis while the grip does extend beyond the guard.

This is true, but I have never seen this in epee.

I suppose it would be fairly common in foil, as most do not have a 12cm guard.