Legal?

[bb43]

http://www.sport7.fr/fr/popup.php?im.../462-photo.jpg

Ive just never seen anything like it...
found at http://www.sport7.fr/

[catwood1]

I'm gonna go with no. That seems very similar to the illegal Dos Santos grip.

Armorer people can correct me if I'm wrong.

[Purple Fencer]

Thinking back to armorer's college....but I believe that grip in SABRE in legal....it's in foil and epee that it would be illegal.

The issue has always been that a French pommeled grip with projections is illegal because you can post and still hook a finger around one of those projections to maintain control instead of trading that control for extra reach. That's not really an issue in sabre....posting does no good.

[SJCFU#2]

The thing is that the applicable rule (m.4.6) is in the general description section and therefore supposedly applies to all three weapons (mind you, it wouldn't be the first instance of the rules being poorly written or organized).

If someone like Dan, Ted or Joe were to declare it legal then I think most people would defer to their judgment. However absent someone of their caliber being there to make such a declaration I wouldn't count on being allowed to use it in competition.

[EldRick]

Some sabreurs do "pommel" in the sense of having one or even two fingers off the back of the guard, on the pommel, I'm told.

Any opinions on whether there would be interest in a tungsten sabre pommel? I'm thinking perhaps that some would prefer a hand-heavy balance, and that a 100-150g would be achievable?

[Rockstar44]

My reading of the rules indicates that this grip would not be legal (although is ought to be).

[Purple Fencer]

My reading of the rules indicates that this grip would not be legal (although is ought to be).

After reading the rule (thanks for the reference) I must disagree....the rules state (emphasis mine):

m.4 1. The maximum length of the grip at foil and épée is 20 cm,
measured between lines B and E, and 18 cm, measured
between lines B and D. At sabre the maximum length of the
grip is 17 cm (see Figures 8, 9 and 13, pp. 80, 83, 88).
2. The grip must be able to pass through the same gauge as the
guard. It must be so made that normally it cannot injure either
the user or his opponent.
3. All types of hilts are allowed providing that they conform to
the regulations which have been framed with a view to
placing the various types of weapons on the same footing.
However, at épée, orthopaedic grips, whether metal or not,
may not be covered with leather or any material which could
hide wires or switches.
4. The grip must not include any device which assists the fencer
to use it as a throwing weapon.
5. The grip must not include any device which can increase in
any way the protection afforded to the hand or wrist of the
fencer by the guard: a cross bar or electric socket which
extends beyond the edge of the guard is expressly forbidden.
6. If the grip (or glove) includes any device or attachment or has
a special shape (orthopaedic) which fixes the position of the
hand on the grip, the grip must conform to the following
conditions.
(a) It must determine and fix one position only for the hand
on the grip.
(b) When the hand occupies this one position on the grip, the
extremity of the thumb when completely extended must
not be more than 2 cm from the inner surface of the
guard.

A standard belgian or visconti grip for a foil or epee could legally be used on a sabre...the rules says ANY grip is allowed so long as it conforms to the rules that follow....NOT that all grips except for use in sabre are allowed, etc etc etc... You could use a standard French grip if you cut it shorter.

That being said, I have yet to see ANY grip for sabre on the strip aside from a standard one.

The issue of posting with this grip on a sabre is a different issue....a little more sticky. Perhaps with a standard sabre pommel it might be illegal....but if you used an insulated hex nut as a pommel, it might not be (kinda hard to grip the weapon by a hex nut)

Donald??

[Inquartata]

I have yet to see ANY grip for sabre on the strip aside from a standard one.

I haven't seen any with projections like that, but I've seen several that have had their girth greatly increased by various methods ( like tennis racquet tape ), and a couple of moulded-grip ones. ( Have a look at the one Eric Wang made for himself next time you run into him. )

[SJCFU#2]

I agree that m.4.3 does not forbid the use of orthopedic grips for saber. However I don't see m.4.3 allowing us to ignore the requirements of m.4.6 simply because we don't see the additional reach afforded as providing an unfair advantage. If that were the case then that same argument could be applied to foil (in fact additional reach is arguably even less critical for foil since a valid attack is less likely to be locked out by a quick counterattack that arrives before the attack).

It may be legal to pommel with a standard saber grip but a standard saber pommel is so small and provides so little grip that I suspect most people who pommel in saber still have at least two fingers and their thumb on the rear portion of the grip - inside of the guard but almost certainly more than 2 cm from its inside surface. They're allowed to do this because a standard saber grip lacks the sort of special shape or features that would lock the hand in one position. As soon as you start adding the sort of protrusions shown on this grip m.4.6 comes into play. I suspect that even if the pommel were completely recessed within the grip it would still be easy enough to effectively wield a saber while holding the grip all the way back near the end (i.e. with the thumb considerably more than 2 cm from the inside surface of the bell guard).

[DHCJr]

I personally would agree with SJCFU#2 and would also want to ask Dan, Joe and Ted. But also it is a grey area. There is also T.16, which starts out, 'With all three weapons . . .'. This is taken directly from 30 of the old rulebook.

A manufacturer has never tried this before. Individuals doing this locally are not going to raise a flag with the FIE. With the Visor mask problem, I am not sure anything will be decided soon about this handle, but if it happens at the World, I am sure something will.

[migopod]

The site has the same grip shown on an epee as well. It looks a lot like a gardere without a thumb spire. I think nearly everybody would agree that the epee pictured there would not be legal because it both fixes the hand and does not fix the hand in one position. I would think that this would be equally true if the same grip were installed on a sabre.

[DHCJr]

Thank you migopod. What you said got me to do some research. Do you notice you can only find that handle, when you are in French. You can not find that handle when you switch to English http://www.sport7.fr/index2_gb.php

But as you know, it is only the Americans that worry about legal and illegal handles and they only understand American.

I think a quote from Laugh-In would be appropriate, "Very Interesting".

Addition, it is also interesting that Sabre handles (17cm) is smaller than an Epee handle (18cm) from M.4. I wonder if they use a shorter handle than standard for Epee.

[migopod]

Thank you migopod. What you said got me to do some research. Do you notice you can only find that handle, when you are in French. You can not find that handle when you switch to English http://www.sport7.fr/index2_gb.php

But as you know, it is only the Americans that worry about legal and illegal handles and they only understand American.

I think a quote from Laugh-In would be appropriate, "Very Interesting".

Addition, it is also interesting that Sabre handles (17cm) is smaller than an Epee handle (18cm) from M.4. I wonder if they use a shorter handle than standard for Epee.

I wonder if the product may just be new enough that they haven't made a translated page for it yet. I'm not entirely prepared to rule out a French conspiracy of some sort though.

[Purple Fencer]

I think a quote from Laugh-In would be appropriate, "Very Interesting".

Thank you, Artie Johnson!

*someone get Donald a Stahlhelm and some bushes to hide behind*

[DHCJr]

I wonder if the product may just be new enough that they haven't made a translated page for it yet. I'm not entirely prepared to rule out a French conspiracy of some sort though.

You’re probably right, but doesn't everyone love a conspiracy theory.

Sam, I'm not that short. I would need a big bush.

[chinbeard]

http://www.sport7.fr/fr/popup.php?im.../462-photo.jpg

Ive just never seen anything like it...
found at http://www.sport7.fr/

Yes, it's legal. However, you might not be allowed to fence with it in a tournament.

[Inquartata]

This is not a question which can be answered in a cesspool.

You know what to do, people. Don't make Jeff write another article!

[Purple Fencer]

Sam, I'm not that short. I would need a big bush.

You'd be easier to hide than Carl!

[Inquartata]

Please...please, I implore you...no more mental images of armorers "hiding in a big bush"...

[bb43]

This is not a question which can be answered in a cesspool.

You know what to do, people. Don't make Jeff write another article!

I somehow thought it would be a yes/no answer. Go figure.