Valor thieves and Stolen Honor Laws

[erik_blank]

While the laws have apparently been on the books for five years now, this is the first time that I had heard anything about it. Apparently the there are a lot of people that are now not only falsely claiming to have been part of the military, but to have been awarded enough medals to be used as scale armor... One judge even falsely claimed to have been awarded not one, but two Congressional Medals of Honor...
See HERE for more.

After the judge, this guy really got my attention:

Last month, Michael Patrick McManus was arrested after a veteran spotted him at the December party for Houston Mayor-elect Annise Parker. McManus was wearing an Army uniform supporting a virtually solid front of decorations, from parachute wings to the Purple Heart to two distinguished service crosses and other decorations. Most notable was a medal around his neck that appeared to make him a Commander of the British Empire.

Personally, I feel these people should be put in stocks and allow the local population to drive by and throw tomatoes at them...

[erooMynohtnA]

Really? Who's being hurt by this, and what's the problem?

Just start arresting guys for lying about their penis size.

[jeff]

The guy is pathetic. I'm curious what charge they arrested him for - that is: just what do those statutes say?

[migopod]

The guy is pathetic. I'm curious what charge they arrested him for - that is: just what do those statutes say?

Aggravated cosplay with intent to impress beyond actual accomplishments.

A crime punishable in most states with ridicule and mocking.

[telkanuru]

Aggravated cosplay with intent to impress beyond actual accomplishments.

A crime punishable in most states with ridicule and mocking.

A period of not less than 5 years forced residence with a 40-year old man who cosplays Sailor Moon.

[Purple Fencer]

Really? Who's being hurt by this, and what's the problem?

Just start arresting guys for lying about their penis size.

The problem is douches like this are claiming the glory that rightfully belongs to those who actually DID serve -- in wartime or peacetime -- and who paid the price, either with a simply gunshot wound or by giving their lives so their comrades might survive the fight.

Who's hurt by this are those service members or their survivors for whom doubt on their verified heroism is tainted by losers like those who not only impersonate a service member, but who are too stupid to not go over the top on the decorations.

Who's also hurt by this (and this was in the news a bit ago) are people who believe in these losers, who cater to them when they appear at events and pretend to be something they're not....thus damaging those people's ability to trust those who actually DID serve.

They're liars of the worst sort....and as a veteran, I am offended by their chutzpah and saddened that they manage to pull the wool over so many eyes.

And I served in peacetime....there are others on this board who have served in wartime...and who I would guess share some of the same feelings.

[erik_blank]

I also am a peacetime vet (a 'whopping' 4 year in the late 80's) but I feel much the same way that Purple does. These people represent themselves as heroes, and use this false status to gain financially (many jobs give preference to veterans), and politically (claims of service add to a persons ability to gain public office, give 'weight' to arguments that otherwise would have no traction, attract members of the opposite sex, etc.).

It DOES do harm to the image of real veterans (not me, I wimped out and quit during peace time), and it could be looked at as impersonating members of the armed service, which if they attempted to enter a military base could get them tried as spies.

While I am not sure that I want these people incarcerated, the idea of public flogging and a few years in the stocks does my subconscious good.

[erooMynohtnA]

So how's that any different that saying you have a large penis when you don't? You're casting doubt upon those who actually are packing, and obviously the people you fool aren't getting what they expected. Now everyone is sad.

Sorry, hurt feelings don't result in criminal charges in my world.

Plus, what counts as a "military decoration"?

[phillipmj]

I agree that this is offensive and pathetic, but unless someone is trying to do something like reap military benefits they're not entitled to, I don't see why this is considered a criminal act.

[migopod]

A period of not less than 5 years forced residence with a 40-year old man who cosplays Sailor Moon.

Dude, I've seen photos of That Guy. That's deep into the realm of cruel and unusual punishment.

[Empty Wallet]

This happens in many countries, for a variety of reasons, see below. It is not just dress-ups, but can lead impersonators using their experience to get access to goods, services and positions for which they would not be legally entited. Some have attained senior positions on veterans organisations -- unpaid, but with glory and prestige.

Here it is illegal to impersonate a veteran, wear medals that one is not entitled to, or to impersonate a person entitled to the medals.


"Here is a small list of those most likely to take on the cloak of deceit." (http://www.anzmi.net/info.html)

* One who wants to be a member "of the group," they need to feel included, to have a sense of belonging. Usually occurs because they've been rejected by friends, family and/or colleagues.

* For financial gain, access to benefits, so they don't have to work. Or perhaps they're not eligible for any other type of pension.

* Mental instability, where someone has to prove to the world and principally to themselves that they are worthwhile, and have done something honourable in their lives. They lose sight of the difference between reality and fantasy. A psychiatrists once said, "Neurotics build sand castles in the air, psychotics move in, psychiatrists collect the rent." In the end they believe that their fantasy is in fact reality.

* Attempting to escape from the law. No access to social security funds, because law enforcement might find it too easy to trace him or her. Access to veteran disability payments could be easier.

* Guilt. Someone who has maimed or killed their own, intentionally or by accident, or done wrong by his or her family, and has taken on a false persona to atone for the crime.

* Mental illness, known as Fictitious Order. Physical maladies, frequently self inflicted for self interest or other type of claim.

[Purple Fencer]

So how's that any different that saying you have a large penis when you don't? You're casting doubt upon those who actually are packing, and obviously the people you fool aren't getting what they expected. Now everyone is sad.

Don't even begin to equate someone lying about how much they swing in the breeze with someone who volunteered to put their life on the line, either in peacetime or wartime.

[Gav]

So you're going to start arresting people who live in a fantasy... gosh.

[I_luv_saber]

So how's that any different that saying you have a large penis when you don't? You're casting doubt upon those who actually are packing, and obviously the people you fool aren't getting what they expected. Now everyone is sad.

Sorry, hurt feelings don't result in criminal charges in my world.

Plus, what counts as a "military decoration"?

It generally seems a good idea to me to not allow people to impersonate a member, former or current, of the military in any way due to possible more serious actions taken from that point.

So you're going to start arresting people who live in a fantasy... gosh.

Why don't we let people fantasize and dress up like cops (security guards aside)?

[Gav]

Why don't we let people fantasize and dress up like cops (security guards aside)?

Actually we do. It's called fancy dress. We don't allow people to impersonate cops - (pretending to) take on their duties and what have you - that's a wholly different topic.

What we're really talking about here are Walter Mitty types. People who live in some sort of fantasyland - for various reasons. Legislation is not inappropriate for such people: it has no deterrent or rehabilitation benefit; legislation will not stop these people dressing up however they feel they want.

I'm sympathetic to the military types who feel the affront caused by this, but really that's all it is; affront. It's not a criminal activity.

[Bayou Bum]

Leave the Village People alone, they're not hurting anyone!

[I_luv_saber]

Actually we do. It's called fancy dress. We don't allow people to impersonate cops - (pretending to) take on their duties and what have you - that's a wholly different topic.

Well, in my experience what is considered impersonating has taken some pretty liberal interpretations. AFAIK, even security guards have some pretty tight restrictions on what they can or can't where and how they can where it. This is regardless of if they are actively impersonating or not.

As an example, I know my security guards have told me (whatever that's worth) that they are not supposed to wear their badges around their neck as it is considered too "close" to what an actual policeman might wear.

What we're really talking about here are Walter Mitty types. People who live in some sort of fantasyland - for various reasons. Legislation is not inappropriate for such people: it has no deterrent or rehabilitation benefit; legislation will not stop these people dressing up however they feel they want.

I agree that it won't really do any good for those sorts of people - and I would hope that if those sorts of people were caught doing so that they would get the help they need. I'm just saying that something that starts relatively harmless could get very serious very quickly.

I'm sympathetic to the military types who feel the affront caused by this, but really that's all it is; affront. It's not a criminal activity.

I don't really have a problem with this happening in someone's home on private property... it just seems pretty logical to me that it's probably a good idea for there to be clear distinctions on whether someone is or is not in the military - and something that might compromise that, whether as an act of impersonation, fantasy, or jest - should probably be taken at least reasonably seriously.

[Gav]

Well, in my experience what is considered impersonating has taken some pretty liberal interpretations. AFAIK, even security guards have some pretty tight restrictions on what they can or can't where and how they can where it. This is regardless of if they are actively impersonating or not.

This might well be true in the US not so sure about the UK other than security guards not being allowed to have uniforms that resemble the current uniform. This is a common sense policy because you don't want civilians to confuse officers of the law with petty security guards.

However the job that the police do is completely different to that of the military - and I believe this to be true in both of our countries. So I don't hold that the comparison is actually all that valid.

I agree that it won't really do any good for those sorts of people - and I would hope that if those sorts of people were caught doing so that they would get the help they need. I'm just saying that something that starts relatively harmless could get very serious very quickly.

Let's not get into the thin end of the wedge fallacy here. Much more is being made of this than is probably warranted. Are there people - let's face it it's going to need to be groups - dressing and acting like your armed forces in any significant way? Well, there are armed militias in the US but I've never seen one that acted or looked like the US military. The guy in this example was not doing that. He was claiming to be a veteran - probably for the sense of inclusion and esteem that he would gain from the experience.

Just so as we are clear. It's one thing to act like you're in the military (by which I mean doing soldier work or other purposes) it's entirely another to live out a fantasy...

So it's back to the Mittys.

I don't really have a problem with this happening in someone's home on private property... it just seems pretty logical to me that it's probably a good idea for there to be clear distinctions on whether someone is or is not in the military - and something that might compromise that, whether as an act of impersonation, fantasy, or jest - should probably be taken at least reasonably seriously.

Why?

Laws exist where people attempt, by deception, to gain a benefit from someone else. Use those laws. Don't dream up new ones to fix a tiny problem...

Policeman have a clear role within your civilian society, soldiers also have a clear role - but that role is not one with civilian powers or do you contend that you live in a military dictatorship?

[lindajdunn]

http://abcnews.go.com/WN/stolen-valo...ory?id=9779478'

The person whose photo is posted above is appealing his sentence and wants the stolen valor law declared unconstitutional.

Most legal experts think he will lose. But he argues that his right to free speech -- even his right to lie -- is protected by the First Amendment.

Doug Sterner, an Army veteran whose wife's college policy analysis led to the writing of the Stolen Valor Act, has been tracking fake military claims for years.

He gets hundreds of phony applications each year for the Hall of Valor, an online collection of military citations and awards. Though the Hall of Valor was intended to document the heroic tales of America's service men and women, he now also uses it as a platform to report possible violations of the Stolen Valor Act.

He sees very few cases where such a lie isn't fueled by a desire to take advantage of some benefit to decorated veterans.

"Almost without exception in every sort of stolen valor case I have dealt with, there is some kind of underlying fraud, usually with financial fraud," he said.

[Inquartata]

Are there people - let's face it it's going to need to be groups - dressing and acting like your armed forces in any significant way?

Yeah. It's called the National Guard.

Cough. Sorry. I kid the Guard.

Seriously, though, the closest thing would be Civil War re-enactors or maybe the Commemorative Air Force. ( I don't think the latter wear military-type uniforms. )

Well, there are armed militias in the US but I've never seen one that acted or looked like the US military.

No. Most of them would view that as associating themselves with the government, and find it actively offensive---to themselves. Although they have no problem with camouflage garments...

Policeman have a clear role within your civilian society, soldiers also have a clear role - but that role is not one with civilian powers...

Unless they are brought in and given them, eg during natural disasters like Katrina or, at the extreme, under martial law.