Stiffness v Quickness

[chinbeard]

I ain't no fancy big-city metallurgist or nothin', which is why I'm wondering if my assumption that blade stiffness and quickness (I mean its ability to rebound from a bent state) are the same thing. Any thoughts on this matter?

[K O'N]

I ain't no fancy big-city metallurgist or nothin', which is why I'm wondering if my assumption that blade stiffness and quickness (I mean its ability to rebound from a bent state) are the same thing. Any thoughts on this matter?

Yes, stiff blades spring back faster. See Spring Constant for more details.

K O'N

[piste off]

Right. Which is why better fencers prefer stiff blades.

R-

[migopod]

Right. Which is why better fencers prefer stiff blades.

R-

And also 50% of why I like my opponents to have really flexible blades.

[K O'N]

Right. Which is why better fencers prefer stiff blades.

R-

Due to faster flicks? "Flickyness" goes beyond the OP's question though, it also has to do also with where on the blade the bend is when you flick. "Flickyness" is not a one dimensional space.

It also has to do with the mass on the end of the blade. Has anyone noticed a difference in flicking when using zip tips? I assume being plastic they weigh less than a metal tip.

K O'N

[migopod]

Due to faster flicks? "Flickyness" goes beyond the OP's question though, it also has to do also with where on the blade the bend is when you flick. "Flickyness" is not a one dimensional space.

It also has to do with the mass on the end of the blade. Has anyone noticed a difference in flicking when using zip tips? I assume being plastic they weigh less than a metal tip.

K O'N

Personally I think it goes beyond flicking. I have an LP non-fie epee blade that's extremely flexible but usually fence with fairly stiff BFs. When I tried the LP I find the tip to be slow, too mobile and more prone to miss on quick actions to small targets.

As far as flickery with Zip tips, they're only slightly lighter than normal tips, so combined with the mass of the barrel I doubt the difference is too noticeable.

[chinbeard]

Due to faster flicks? "Flickyness" goes beyond the OP's question though, it also has to do also with where on the blade the bend is when you flick. "Flickyness" is not a one dimensional space.

It also has to do with the mass on the end of the blade. Has anyone noticed a difference in flicking when using zip tips? I assume being plastic they weigh less than a metal tip.

K O'N

I wasn't really thinking about faster flicks, but rather faster recovery from missed flicks/feints.

[piste off]

Due to faster flicks? "Flickyness" goes beyond the OP's question though, it also has to do also with where on the blade the bend is when you flick. "Flickyness" is not a one dimensional space.

It also has to do with the mass on the end of the blade. Has anyone noticed a difference in flicking when using zip tips? I assume being plastic they weigh less than a metal tip.

K O'N

No, at least in épée for most good fencers the importance of stiffness is that they want the point to be where they want it without delay.

This is true in my opinion for all actions.

To me, a flick has the conotation that you are expecting the blade to finish the action. Better fencers are typically faster than that in my experience, and would rather rely on their own speed - not that of the blades.

[chinbeard]

When I tried the LP I find the tip to be slow, too mobile and more prone to miss on quick actions to small targets.

I've been having the same problem with non-FIE StM's.

[K O'N]

Due to faster flicks? "Flickyness" goes beyond the OP's question though, it also has to do also with where on the blade the bend is when you flick. "Flickyness" is not a one dimensional space.

It also has to do with the mass on the end of the blade. Has anyone noticed a difference in flicking when using zip tips? I assume being plastic they weigh less than a metal tip.

No, at least in épée for most good fencers the importance of stiffness is that they want the point to be where they want it without delay.

This is true in my opinion for all actions.

Ah, ok. Sure. I wonder if this is generational or something; soft blades don't bother my point control. I fenced for years on Prieur narrow gauge epees which were fairly bendy, but bent further up the blade than a modern epee does. Small quick actions to the hand were my best touch. Actually they were my only touch.

To me, a flick has the conotation that you are expecting the blade to finish the action. Better fencers are typically faster than that in my experience, and would rather rely on their own speed - not that of the blades.

I think there are some pretty good epee fencers who flick.

K O'N

[K O'N]

When I tried the LP I find the tip to be slow, too mobile and more prone to miss on quick actions to small targets.

I've been having the same problem with non-FIE StM's.

They seem pretty similar to me too. Non FIE StMs are the club blades I use, LP is the blade most of my kids move up to for a personal epee. I just had a girl dump her FIE StMs for LPs, she wasn't happy with the wonky bends the FIE StMs took.

K O'N

[bigdawg2121]

Ah, ok. Sure. I wonder if this is generational or something; soft blades don't bother my point control. I fenced for years on Prieur narrow gauge epees which were fairly bendy, but bent further up the blade than a modern epee does. Small quick actions to the hand were my best touch. Actually they were my only touch.



I think there are some pretty good epee fencers who flick.

K O'N

Can't imagine this to be generational. I think most/all good épée fencers I know prefer stiffer blades that bend primarily in the final third of the blade. I know one guy that prefers his blades to bend closer to the middle but he's an outlier. I feel pretty confident saying that precision* goes up with a stiffer blade that bends further toward the tip.

I also don't think the connotation was meant to be that good epee fencers don't flick. I think he was trying to get at the fact that fencers who use flexible blades to flick are relying on the blade to do the work. Good fencers don't need the extra help; most good fencers have no problem flicking the stiffest blades out there.

[chinbeard]

Then are BF Whites the only blade for advanced epee fencers?

From what I understand/have tried:

BF Blue/Gold: Flicky
LP FIE/non-FIE: Flicky
Vniti: Flicky
Chevalier FIE/non-FIE: Flicky
StM FIE/non-FIE: Flicky
Dinamo FIE/non-FIE: Flicky

[migopod]

Then are BF Whites the only blade for advanced epee fencers?

From what I understand/have tried:

BF Blue/Gold: Flicky
LP FIE/non-FIE: Flicky
Vniti: Flicky
Chevalier FIE/non-FIE: Flicky
StM FIE/non-FIE: Flicky
Dinamo FIE/non-FIE: Flicky

Really all blades will be flicky to some extent. Otherwise they would be pretty unlikely to pass the bend requirements.

BF Blue/Gold/White are not supposedly different, although flexibility varies considerably among and between batches.

LP FIE is available in a range of flexibility and is as far as I know the only one where the manufacturer measures the flexibility and marks each blade accordingly.

The one Chevalier FIE that I have is very similar in stiffness and bend profile to the BF blues I usually get, and I tend to end up with pretty stiff BFs.

[EldRick]

LP FIE is available in a range of flexibility and is as far as I know the only one where the manufacturer measures the flexibility and marks each blade accordingly.

Can anyone else confirm this? It does not show as an option on their web site.

I can't find the LP secret spreadsheet on blade weights and balance points - it seems to be the best-hidden document on their web site...

[piste off]

I also don't think the connotation was meant to be that good epee fencers don't flick. I think he was trying to get at the fact that fencers who use flexible blades to flick are relying on the blade to do the work. Good fencers don't need the extra help; most good fencers have no problem flicking the stiffest blades out there.

Exactly.

And chinbeard, almost all good epeeists I know prefer BF whites. Stiffness, balance, and the fact that they are no different than blues (other than the color due to a chemical applied) but cheaper.

Batches for BFs can be quite different, and even the flex and feel within a batch can vary dramatically. Best to hand pick them for one you like.

R-

[DangerMouse]

Exactly.

And chinbeard, almost all good epeeists I know prefer BF whites. Stiffness, balance, and the fact that they are no different than blues (other than the color due to a chemical applied) but cheaper.

Batches for BFs can be quite different, and even the flex and feel within a batch can vary dramatically. Best to hand pick them for one you like.

R-

I have actually found the most recent BF whites I've bought to be a bit heavy. On the other hand, my recent StM FIEs have been light and very stiff. I actually prefer them to my BFs. But this changes batch to batch and is why I pick out my blades personally when I can. When I can't I ask for stiff blades from a trusted retailer.

[chinbeard]

Batches for BFs can be quite different, and even the flex and feel within a batch can vary dramatically. Best to hand pick them for one you like.

R-

I have actually found the most recent BF whites I've bought to be a bit heavy. On the other hand, my recent StM FIEs have been light and very stiff. I actually prefer them to my BFs. But this changes batch to batch and is why I pick out my blades personally when I can. When I can't I ask for stiff blades from a trusted retailer.

Does the shape/place of the bend show where the flick is going to occur? I was told that a good durable blade should bend evenly along the length of the blade. Is this not possible with a stiff blade that flicks along the last 1/3 of the blade?

[Nolano]

Does the shape/place of the bend show where the flick is going to occur? I was told that a good durable blade should bend evenly along the length of the blade. Is this not possible with a stiff blade that flicks along the last 1/3 of the blade?

More accurately, the blade shouldn't be pool cue-stiff and then sudden bend sharply 2/3 of the way down the blade. I have a few very stiff blades that mostly bend towards the foible, but they "look" even when you bend them with your hand.

[chinbeard]

More accurately, the blade shouldn't be pool cue-stiff and then sudden bend sharply 2/3 of the way down the blade. I have a few very stiff blades that mostly bend towards the foible, but they "look" even when you bend them with your hand.

Then how do you know where they're going to bend when you're picking them out?