Foil Question

[graphixaddict]

What are the specs ona competition foil. I know there are different lengths. I have 2, #5 practice foils. Is that the standard length. And do electric weapons have more flex than practice weapons?
Thanks,
Graph

[Rick]

Your #5 foils should be "regulation" length. I've never been busted for having too long or too short a foil. So I would imagine that they're fairly consistent in their forging.

As for electric foils... if you purchase an electric foil that is of the same brand as your practice foils, there shouldn't be a difference in flexibility. However, there are some foils blades out there that are more "whippy" than others... such as the Paul Etoile.

[DHCJr]

First the maximum length of a straight with no curves is 90cm, which slightly less than 35 1/2"(M-8) and be made of steel (M-2.1). There is no standard for what a #2 blade is. It is whatever the manufacturer wants to make it. A full size blade could be stamped with a 2 and that would follow the rules as they are written at present. After saying that the Youth Committee is checking at the tournaments what a #2 blade usually is. From what the studies I have seen done, that is around 83cm or 84cm.

The problem with length is blades are designed for a particular tip. If you get one that is longer then the blade will be too long. But blade length is very rarely checked, mostly only at World Championships and Olympics. It is not done at all World Cups even. There is a minimum length, which you can find below, IF YOU READ VERY CAREFULLY. I have never seen a blade even close to the minimum.

The maximum resistance for the foil is 2 ohms (M-5.4). This is not in the USFA rulebook, but it is in the FIE rulebook. This is because of an editor error for the FIE rulebook missed putting it into the published rule book, but it has now been added to their website. For the body cord the maximum is 1 ohm per line (M-29) and the lame 5 ohms (M-28).

The other rules are the handle; not including the pommel must be no more than 18cm and with the pommel no more than 20cm (M-4). The guard must be between 9.5cm and 12cm in diameter (M-9) and cannot have anything extend beyond the guard (M-4.5) (i.e. connector). The blade must be mounted with the groove up (M-8.4). The insulation of the tip end must be no more than 15cm (M-13). The curve of the blade must be in only one direction and no more than 2cm and the edges should be chamfered (M-8).

On handles, if it fixes the position of your hand, then it should be in one place only and where your thumb is within 2cm of the inside of the guard (M-4.6) and must have a thumb pad and the wire must have spaghetti (M-5.2)

On flexibility, while clamping the blade 70cm from the tip and placing a 200gm weight 3cm from the end, the displacement should be between 5.5cm and 9.5cm (M-8). As far as practice (I assume non-electric), I don’t know, and I don’t know if anyone ever checks.

There are of course many more rules and you should get a rulebook. You can download it from the USFA web site. There are some rules that are not enforced like M-11.4 (1mm maximum travel and M-10 (permanent (i.e. soldered) connection to the socket).

Get, Read, and Understand the Rulebook.

[I see dead people]

does the bell guard have to be grounded?

[Purple Fencer]

The guard is grounded through contact with the bodycord socket and the C line if the body cord itself. If you land on the guard, the power from your weapon gors into the guard, then the socket, then the C line and on to grandma's house, bypassing the lights.

[edew]

Originally posted by DHCJr
[...]

There are of course many more rules and you should get a rulebook. You can download it from the USFA web site. There are some rules that are not enforced like M-11.4 (1mm maximum travel and M-10 (permanent (i.e. soldered) connection to the socket).

Get, Read, and Understand the Rulebook.

I think M-10 should be removed or changed. Not only is this rule NOT enforced or implemented, it is almost strictly disimplemented. No one would be stupid enough to actually try and solder the wire to the socket.

Perhaps a better way to phrase that requirement is, "....securely fasten the wire to the socket."

The wire does break (even if soldered) and not because of intentional reasons. Most often, it's because the screw is not tightened sufficiently. Another possibility is the screw is tightened TOO much (thereby biting off the wire and breaking it). In any case, no one would want to spend time soldering the wire to a tab attached to the socket. (Furthermore, any bits of hanging solder might cause a grounding, thereby shorting the B and C lines and no light will register when a touch is performed.)

[DHCJr]

[quote]Originally posted by edew
[b]I think M-10 should be removed or changed. Not only is this rule NOT enforced or implemented, it is almost strictly disimplemented. No one would be stupid enough to actually try and solder the wire to the socket.

Actually Eric, you will find soldered connectors at every international competition. Every Italian Armorer that goes with the team requires Cammarri connector. The rule was written because the original body cord used by every fencer at the 1956 Olympics was the Cammarri. The only way to connect the Cammarri is by soldering and the solder should be inside the tube, but even if it is not the spaghetti tubing goes over the tube making stray solder a non issue.

The reason for the rule is exactly the same as the rule requiring the body cord clip be solder. As you said, the wire can still break even with solder, but the reason for the soldering is it works or it doesn't work. Screws, nuts, crimps and come loose and be intermittent.

You would call me stupid! On my personal foils and sabres, that are not loaned out, I use Cammarri soldered connectors. They have never failed me.

[edew]

Hmmm... perhaps I've never seen a Cammarri connector. If you're going to the DITD, please bring one along for display!

I know none of the foil fencers at Stanford, many of whom attend world cups and world championships regularly use anything besides the usual sockets.

Indeed, on Monday night's practice, Tim Chang's weapon was malfunctioning intermittently because the nut was loose. I fixed it (since I wasn't hooked up to the overhead) without the benefit of solder.

[Purple Fencer]

Originally posted by edew
[b]Hmmm... perhaps I've never seen a Cammarri connector. If you're going to the DITD, please bring one along for display!

Now you've done it, Eric...he'll bring a handfull! (that's how I got mine)

Indeed, on Monday night's practice, Tim Chang's weapon was malfunctioning intermittently because the nut was loose.

Sounds like a personal problem

[DHCJr]

I will bring one of my sabres with an FIE blade when they were required. It's illegal now because of flexibility.

Those two are not the only rules that are ignored. For example the Uhlmann machines used at the 1984 Olympics did not follow the rules and also the lame tester they sell is illegal. Since many clubs, try and buy as inexpensively as possible, most have illegal reels. All Leon Paul, Prieur and Russian are illegal if you follow every rule. I will leave the rule numbers for a class project. But then it is impossible to fence legally in epee. The C line must be connected directly to the piste. Think about that some time. There are obsolute rules all over. I once lived in a city, where it was required to call the sherrif a half hour before you drove into town. This law was from 1900 when cars were rare, but it is still on the books.

There are a number of the rules that are well known and are only kept for nostalgia, like the 1mm shim test. I believe it was only enforced at one competiton in the last 30 years and that was at the insistent of a French team saying we must use the whole rule book, exactly as written, without exception, when testing their equipment. They didn't know what they were asking for, because they didn't know the FIE (French) rule book as well as the American Armorers.

[edew]

Originally posted by Purple Fencer
Now you've done it, Eric...he'll bring a handfull! (that's how I got mine)



Sounds like a personal problem

Tim (and others at Stanford) fence more international events per year than national events.

He'll be at the DITD, BTW, so maybe you can introduce him to those cammarri sockets.