Trouble Advancing from a Bounce (Epee)

[peterlista]

I am getting very good at bouncing when I fence (which developed pretty naturally when I recently switched to Epee). I have a very fast retreat, which can either resemble a bounce backwards (both feet landing at the same time, a la Johan Harmenberg's Epee 2.0) or moving into a quick "classical" retreat (although slightly resembles more of a shuffle).

What I am having problems with is going into an advance from a forward (or even backward) hop. I can bounce continuously forward, but that doesn't give me the distance or speed I need when going into an attack.

Luckily, I am very defense when I fence and prefer stop hits and defensive actions, however, it is limiting to not have a fast advance.

Any ideas?

[edew]

Bouncing isn't meant to get people to move forward fast. It's to get people to move forward surreptitiously and in very fine increments. If you want to see fencers moving forward quickly look at saber fencers, for example. How often to do they bounce? If you want to move quickly forward, use standard advances. Of course, that would be a tell for your opponent to know that you're now going to move quickly.

If you're at the right distance, you don't really need to make advances. Just bounces will sneak you there and bam!

[peterlista]

Bouncing isn't meant to get people to move forward fast. It's to get people to move forward surreptitiously and in very fine increments.

Fair enough, but I am having trouble going into an advance from the bounce. I am very good at the small movements, and am doing well "sneaking up" on my opponent, but would like some ideas on how to go from the bounce to a "classical" advance (even if I don't use it to get every touch, I would like to be able to do it).

[Allen Evans]

I am going to assume that if you are bouncing (and having trouble making a traditional advance) that your on guard is slightly wide. This is preventing you from properly loading the legs to make an advance. You might also be making the mistake of bouncing from the quad muscles, and not softening up your knees and ankles.

To transition from a bouncing on guard to an advance, close up your back foot 2 to 3 inches on one of your bounces, that should enable you to transition the weight quickly to make an advance. You could close your stance by pulling the front foot back (and there might be tactical reasons to do so) but moving the rear foot is easier to conceal.

This is such a natural action to perform (moving from bouncing to "traditional" footwork) that I can't help but wonder if you're doing something wrong in your "bouncing" footwork to begin with

A

[peterlista]

This is such a natural action to perform (moving from bouncing to "traditional" footwork) that I can't help but wonder if you're doing something wrong in your "bouncing" footwork to begin with

I just threw on my fencing shoes and tried it again and I am pretty certain that I am not doing anything "wrong" with my bounce. It seems like I have a pretty upright en garde, and like I said before, I am able to transition into a traditional retreat but have trouble going into the advance.

EDIT: Although, on second thought, I think that there might be something to, "making the mistake of bouncing from the quad muscles, and not softening up your knees and ankles." I'll have to play around with that.

[Allen Evans]

So, did you try "bouncing" into a slightly more closed on guard and advancing out of it?

A

[peterlista]

So, did you try "bouncing" into a slightly more closed on guard and advancing out of it?

I did, and what I am starting to think is that you are right about softening my knees up a bit. I tend to keep my back leg fairly straight because it allows me to retreat faster, but it seems to be limiting me when it comes to advancing.

[Thierry]

I am getting very good at bouncing when I fence (which developed pretty naturally when I recently switched to Epee). I have a very fast retreat, which can either resemble a bounce backwards (both feet landing at the same time, a la Johan Harmenberg's Epee 2.0) or moving into a quick "classical" retreat (although slightly resembles more of a shuffle).

What I am having problems with is going into an advance from a forward (or even backward) hop. I can bounce continuously forward, but that doesn't give me the distance or speed I need when going into an attack.

Luckily, I am very defense when I fence and prefer stop hits and defensive actions, however, it is limiting to not have a fast advance.

Any ideas?

Stop hits? From the way I hear you fence, can I assume that you fence with your rear leg straightened? Or that the moment you extend your
hand, you tend to straighten it so as to get more distance. That was my problem anyway. I used to fence counter-attack, my leg often straightened for more reach, but it heavily restricted my movements. If that's the case, cut that habit. Fence with both legs bent. If you fence with you rear leg straightened ( or rather, with your weight shifted to your front), you may be quick when retreating, and retreating may seem to be easier, but you lose the ability to advance efficiently. If you
take my advice, you'd probably find it a bit more tiresome moving backwards, but you should be able to move forward,
provided that my diagnosis was right.

Hope
this helps
;P

[Thierry]

Sorry for the double post. I failed to read your second post. Yes, when you fence with your back leg straightened, you lose mobility in the advances as the power of the advances come from your back leg, the back leg is like a spring, so when you straighten it, you lose your power. E.g. Try lunging with a straightened leg, then do it with the traditional bent back leg. Cheers!

[Hauptman]

I am getting very good at bouncing when I fence (which developed pretty naturally when I recently switched to Epee). I have a very fast retreat, which can either resemble a bounce backwards (both feet landing at the same time, a la Johan Harmenberg's Epee 2.0) or moving into a quick "classical" retreat (although slightly resembles more of a shuffle).

What I am having problems with is going into an advance from a forward (or even backward) hop. I can bounce continuously forward, but that doesn't give me the distance or speed I need when going into an attack.

Luckily, I am very defense when I fence and prefer stop hits and defensive actions, however, it is limiting to not have a fast advance.

Any ideas?

There are some interesting ideas here, but I guess I don't see why you want to move from a bounce to an advance. Sure it can be done, but it doesn't intuitively fit to me because in my mind a bounce is the alternative to an advance.

I think that a bounce fits intuitively with a balestra, or a fleche, but not an advance. Are you planning to bounce-advance-lunge? I just don't get it.

[dramamine]

Well, you said you fence mostly upright, so I'd guess a lot of your weight is on your back leg. Maybe it's because you need to shift your center of balance in order to go forwards quickly. If your bounces are too big you may also have trouble going from up-down to forward motion.

Solutions? Like some people said, you could just get into lunge/fleche distance and go. Alternatively, learn to shift your weight forward more so you have more acceleration at the beginning (but of course you lose it all at the end because you can't "load up" on your back leg as Allan put it) if that's what you're after.

Think about the position you'd get into if you wanted to start a sprint quickly though. Naturally your disposition will probably be to shift a bunch of your weight forward - I think it's the same thing here.

Make sure you practice it often in footwork too, obviously. Just drive forward with your back leg when you want to go fast.

[Gav]

I am getting very good at bouncing when I fence (which developed pretty naturally when I recently switched to Epee). I have a very fast retreat, which can either resemble a bounce backwards (both feet landing at the same time, a la Johan Harmenberg's Epee 2.0) or moving into a quick "classical" retreat (although slightly resembles more of a shuffle).

What I am having problems with is going into an advance from a forward (or even backward) hop. I can bounce continuously forward, but that doesn't give me the distance or speed I need when going into an attack.

Luckily, I am very defense when I fence and prefer stop hits and defensive actions, however, it is limiting to not have a fast advance.

Any ideas?

I am struggling to imagine what you are doing here. A video would help.

Forget about "bouncing" for a second. In your en guarde stance can you move back and forward? How dynamic is that movement?

No matter what you are doing your movements back and forward should be smooth and easy. You should be able to step forward and back no matter what else you are doing (bouncing or not). As a result I have a strong suspicion that there's something amiss with your basic technique.

Have you watched David Littel's footwork videos? I think they are pretty good. Certainly they are food for thought.

http://web.me.com/david_littell/Lear...ce/Videos.html

[Thierry]

Yeah in his second post he said he fences with his back leg straightened so that he can retreat faster. That's probably the problem.

[peterlista]

I used to fence counter-attack, my leg often straightened for more reach, but it heavily restricted my movements. If that's the case, cut that habit. Fence with both legs bent. If you fence with you rear leg straightened ( or rather, with your weight shifted to your front), you may be quick when retreating, and retreating may seem to be easier, but you lose the ability to advance efficiently.

Yes, when you fence with your back leg straightened, you lose mobility in the advances as the power of the advances come from your back leg, the back leg is like a spring, so when you straighten it, you lose your power.

You hit the nail on the head. I seem to be straightening my back leg (as you suggest), which seems to help me retreat. What I am forgetting to do is "unload" my back leg and allow it to bend to give me that "spring." I think your issue is the same one I am looking at as well.

[...] I guess I don't see why you want to move from a bounce to an advance. Sure it can be done, but it doesn't intuitively fit to me because in my mind a bounce is the alternative to an advance.

It's all situational, sometimes you want to change the tempo of the bout and a "traditional" advance or retreat is the best way to do that. At least that is my experience. Although, it is true that I would be more apt to attack from the bounce (bounce into distance, see opening, lounge), which doesn't mean I am always using "traditional" footwork prior to an attack.

Forget about "bouncing" for a second. In your en guarde stance can you move back and forward? How dynamic is that movement?

No matter what you are doing your movements back and forward should be smooth and easy. You should be able to step forward and back no matter what else you are doing (bouncing or not). As a result I have a strong suspicion that there's something amiss with your basic technique.

If you read the stuff written by Thierry, you'll have a better idea as to what is going on. From a "traditional" en guarde, I can advance and retreat fine, it's when I straighten my back leg that it gives me issues... I assuming that Thierry is right in their reasoning as to why I do that.

[damianip]

One important point:

I don't know how experienced you are, but if you are reading Harmenberg, please remember that he is suggesting these approaches to fencers with an established base in fundamentals.

If you are having trouble advancing while bouncing, take Gav's advice and go back to conventional advances and en garde. Get that right before working on the bounce.

You need a strong technique before you tear it down and reconstruct it.

Paolo

[peterlista]

One important point:

I don't know how experienced you are, but if you are reading Harmenberg, please remember that he is suggesting these approaches to fencers with an established base in fundamentals.

If you are having trouble advancing while bouncing, take Gav's advice and go back to conventional advances and en garde. Get that right before working on the bounce.

You need a strong technique before you tear it down and reconstruct it.

Paolo

And of course, his book was written for those with at least 5+ years experience fencing. In no way am I changing my game to fit into his paradigm, I actually started reading the book after I developed my "bounce." Although, I will say that I like some of the ideas in his book, AoE and Hidden Prerequisites can be used at any level.

[shlepzig]

I use a number of transitions from bouncing to advance/retreat or other actions.

Tactically I can use these to smoothly steal some distance in a tempo and if it works out I can accelerate into a full attack, or if not, I can change direction and try for a counter.

During the bounce tempo when you want to advance on the up-bounce, leave your back foot planted and just float your front foot forward. Instead of bouncing up, use the spring-like energy in your back leg to take a single step in. It looks like you haven't done anything different, but you just gained a little bit more distance than you would have with a simple bounce forward. It should feel almost effortless, like floating forward on the half-tempo. From here you can resume bouncing, or finish with a fast attack.

To transition to retreat do the same thing in reverse, keep your front foot planted and float your back foot back.

To do so, you have to keep a normal closed stance (feet about 1-1/2 foot widths apart, give or take a smidge). This allows you to use the spring in your legs to accelerate either direction in the up or down tempo. You will know when it feels "right" that you have it down.

I practice these transitions in my footwork drills, as well as the second transition to jump-back, lunge, ballestra or fleche.

-Shlep'

[telkanuru]

AoE and Hidden Prerequisites can be used at any level.

You have to be good at something before you have an AOE.

[peterlista]

You have to be good at something before you have an AOE.

Or you can look at it from a broader prospective and say that no matter ones level (assuming some proficiency) they can make informed judgments on their opponents and their own strengths and weaknesses. Knowing what an opponent needs to preform an action (HP) ought to be something you are always looking out for and adjusting as you fence. In the same way, knowing where you strengths (AoE) are and trying to lead your opponent to that area is something everyone ought to be conscious of and work into their game.

[damianip]

And of course, his book was written for those with at least 5+ years experience fencing. In no way am I changing my game to fit into his paradigm, I actually started reading the book after I developed my "bounce." Although, I will say that I like some of the ideas in his book, AoE and Hidden Prerequisites can be used at any level.

So, how long have you been fencing and what is your assessment of your "conventional" footwork?

Bouncing works if it is an extension of a sound foundation in footwork. Otherwise, you'll find that you'll have spotty success. You need to move well conventionally before you add another dimension to your footwork.

There is a reason for the emphasis on footwork: being properly in-balance and moving efficiently and smoothly are always useful. Basic footwork establishes this in a fencer.

And, although Telkanuru may have been slightly "ironic" in his statement, he makes a very good point. You want to choose your AoE, not have it pick you.

Paolo