Trouble Advancing from a Bounce (Epee)

[telkanuru]

And, although Telkanuru may have been slightly "ironic" in his statement, he makes a very good point. You want to choose your AoE, not have it pick you.

I'm just that Zen.

Seriously, what's RIT's sig line? "Technical excellence is an antecedent to tactical creativity."

[Allen Evans]

So this might apply:

http://www.fencing.net/forums/blogs/...footwork-5553/

[pjsise1]

In addition to some of the other good advice here...

When bouncing, you need to consider that the bounce has an upward movement and a downward movement. An advance, a lunge, or a fleche, should be timed to start when the legs are loaded and bent the most, and that is at the end of a downstroke, with the new action (lunge etc) replacing the next upstroke of the bounce.

You might be finding yourself, in a bout, occasionally trying to start an advance because the situation with the opponent calls for it, and unknowingly, the timing does not sync in with what your bounce is doing. That would produce an awkward feeling transitioning from a bounce to an advance.

[peterlista]

So, how long have you been fencing and what is your assessment of your "conventional" footwork?

Bouncing works if it is an extension of a sound foundation in footwork. Otherwise, you'll find that you'll have spotty success. You need to move well conventionally before you add another dimension to your footwork.

There is a reason for the emphasis on footwork: being properly in-balance and moving efficiently and smoothly are always useful. Basic footwork establishes this in a fencer.

And, although Telkanuru may have been slightly "ironic" in his statement, he makes a very good point. You want to choose your AoE, not have it pick you.

Paolo

I have been fencing for almost two years (between the Rochester Fencing Club when I was younger and my college club now), I fenced foil for a year and a half and have recently switched to epee.

Because I have a couple issues with my Achilles Tendon and heel (not to mention extremely flat feet), I am unable to have a "traditional" en guarde and so my coaches have had me preform footwork and an en guarde "on my toes." This way, I am able to do a variation of traditional footwork, but find it much easier to "bounce" instead.

As for JH and AoE; Johan didn't choose his AoE (parry 6-repost), he had it thrust on him because he could no longer use a parry 4 due to using a pistol grip. I think that it can work both ways, but in JH's case, he worked hard to develop his AoE once he decided it was his only decent option left.

[prototoast]

Have you tried just... practicing? Bounce, bounce, bounce, advance; bounce, bounce, bounce, advance. Repeat for 45 minutes a day. You'll figure it out eventually.

[MyrddinsPrecint]

I just threw on my fencing shoes and tried it again and I am pretty certain that I am not doing anything "wrong" with my bounce. It seems like I have a pretty upright en garde, and like I said before, I am able to transition into a traditional retreat but have trouble going into the advance.

EDIT: Although, on second thought, I think that there might be something to, "making the mistake of bouncing from the quad muscles, and not softening up your knees and ankles." I'll have to play around with that.

Your edit is getting somewhere, because otherwise, your question is "I am having this problem where I'm doing everything right, but can't do something very basic. Why?" Well, either you're not doing everything right, or it's not very basic. Or both.

[peterlista]

Have you tried just... practicing? Bounce, bounce, bounce, advance; bounce, bounce, bounce, advance. Repeat for 45 minutes a day. You'll figure it out eventually.

Haha, yes! Of course I am practicing it (over and over and over). I figured I would get some input from the board and see what other fencers are doing.

[peterlista]

Your edit is getting somewhere, because otherwise, your question is "I am having this problem where I'm doing everything right, but can't do something very basic. Why?" Well, either you're not doing everything right, or it's not very basic.

Absolutely, I was definitely doing something wrong, I was not bending my back leg (or at least that seems to be the best diagnosis at this point, I'll chat with my coach after spring break). I am playing around with my bounce now, it seems to be much, much easier to move.

[telkanuru]

In addition to some of the other good advice here...

When bouncing, you need to consider that the bounce has an upward movement and a downward movement. An advance, a lunge, or a fleche, should be timed to start when the legs are loaded and bent the most, and that is at the end of a downstroke, with the new action (lunge etc) replacing the next upstroke of the bounce.

You might be finding yourself, in a bout, occasionally trying to start an advance because the situation with the opponent calls for it, and unknowingly, the timing does not sync in with what your bounce is doing. That would produce an awkward feeling transitioning from a bounce to an advance.

Yeah, you're thinking about that way too much. Like, WAY too much.


I've personally always found the "happy feet" drill to be useful.

[oiuyt]

Haha, yes! Of course I am practicing it (over and over and over). I figured I would get some input from the board and see what other fencers are doing.

Have you considered also asking an expert who can see what you're doing in person?

Perhaps a coach? Or at least a pirate?

-B

[peterlista]

Have you considered also asking an expert who can see what you're doing in person?

Perhaps a coach? Or at least a pirate?

-B

A pirate seems like the best option!

But seriously, yes, it's something I am working on (by myself and with my coach). I think I have the answer I need, at least it seems to be working.

[damianip]

I have been fencing for almost two years (between the Rochester Fencing Club when I was younger and my college club now), I fenced foil for a year and a half and have recently switched to epee.

So, depending on the quality of your coaching, you are a beginner or intermediate fencer.

Because I have a couple issues with my Achilles Tendon and heel (not to mention extremely flat feet), I am unable to have a "traditional" en guarde and so my coaches have had me preform footwork and an en guarde "on my toes."

I can relate. I have Achilles tendon issues as well, but mine are due to poor conditioning age and weight gain over the years.

Go see a foot specialist. You may find orthotics to be a tremendous help.

This way, I am able to do a variation of traditional footwork, but find it much easier to "bounce" instead.

"Easier" isn't necessarily better or even correct. A combination of proper footwear and an analysis of your footwork might give you better long term results and keep you from crippling yourself.

As for JH and AoE; Johan didn't choose his AoE (parry 6-repost), he had it thrust on him because he could no longer use a parry 4 due to using a pistol grip. I think that it can work both ways, but in JH's case, he worked hard to develop his AoE once he decided it was his only decent option left.

I've read JH three times now and discussed it at length with the teaching staff at my club.

The one thing that really gets me is JH's deprecation of his own technique. I'm sure he could parry four riposte the daylights out of 99.99% of the world's fencers (even today).

The problem is that JH would compare himself to the likes of Philippe Riboud. Compared to Riboud, almost all epee fencers lack technique. However, don't kid yourself, JH has enough technique to fence anywhere except the uppermost reaches of the top echelon of fencers.

Epee 2.0 is not relevant for you yet. (or me, for that matter).

It is interesting as a philosophical treatise or to help understand the highest level of epee competition. There are a couple of fencers in our club which could really benefit from it, but for the rest of us, it's academic.

Paolo

[peterlista]

So, depending on the quality of your coaching, you are a beginner or intermediate fencer.

That would be right. I'd consider myself a beginner still, however, I am not at an extreme lack of experience.

Go see a foot specialist. You may find orthotics to be a tremendous help.

I have gone to a physical therapist (for years actually), and am at the point where I can regulate my own issues. I also have orthopedics made, which I use in my fencing shoes.

"Easier" isn't necessarily better or even correct. A combination of proper footwear and an analysis of your footwork might give you better long term results and keep you from crippling yourself.

Like I said, my "traditional" footwork is good, just a little different than the norm.

It is interesting as a philosophical treatise or to help understand the highest level of epee competition. There are a couple of fencers in our club which could really benefit from it, but for the rest of us, it's academic.

I agree, however, I think that even an academic piece can still be helpful in practice.

[peterlista]

I found this thread from a few years ago... it has a lot of good information on a similar subject, namely, having an en garde balanced slightly forward.

Proper epee en garde position?

[TrainingDummy]

I also have orthopedics made, which I use in my fencing shoes.

Do you have the prescription hard plastic ones? Does anyone have any input on them? I have flat feet, too, and I definitely need them (I fence epee, if it matters). One of the things that's worried me is that my footowork might never be as fast or as good as someone with normal feet. Can anyone confirm or deny this? Any special drills for people with flat feet?

(sorry for the thread drift!)

[MyrddinsPrecint]

Do you have the prescription hard plastic ones? Does anyone have any input on them? I have flat feet, too, and I definitely need them (I fence epee, if it matters). One of the things that's worried me is that my footowork might never be as fast or as good as someone with normal feet. Can anyone confirm or deny this? Any special drills for people with flat feet?

(sorry for the thread drift!)

I have the hard plastic ones. They were MAGIC for me. I went from falling over with little notice-- in the middle of bouts, in the middle of streets, my ankles would just give out-- to being able to walk normally, without my ankles giving out all the time. I still have plenty of other problems, but at least I don't fall over.

While I assume my footwork suffers, there's really nothing I can do about it, so I don't really worry about it. Unless you're trying to decide whether or not you should attempt to make the national team, I doubt it's worth your time/worry either.....

[peterlista]

Do you have the prescription hard plastic ones? Does anyone have any input on them? I have flat feet, too, and I definitely need them (I fence epee, if it matters). One of the things that's worried me is that my footowork might never be as fast or as good as someone with normal feet. Can anyone confirm or deny this? Any special drills for people with flat feet?

While I assume my footwork suffers, there's really nothing I can do about it, so I don't really worry about it. Unless you're trying to decide whether or not you should attempt to make the national team, I doubt it's worth your time/worry either.....

Mine are a hard leather orthopedic insole made for me by my chiropractor at the time. They are wonderful and add a nice arch to my foot that is otherwise missing. Go to an orthopedic specialist or a physical therapist and see what they say.

As for how it will effect your footwork? ...it really shouldn't too much (at least it didn't for me). Because of my flat feet I couldn't do "traditional" footwork anyways so my coaches had me do everything on the balls of my feet. This transitioned nicely to the "bounce" you find in epee, and so I haven't had any real negative effects of my flat feet. I do have a small issue advancing, but because I don't do it that often I am fine in my bouts.

[Allen Evans]

I'm curious why "flat feet" would prevent someone from doing "traditional" footwork?

A

[peterlista]

I'm curious why "flat feet" would prevent someone from doing "traditional" footwork?

A

Ultimately, my flat feet are a cause of my pronated feet. This means (in the context of the en garde), that if I am in a traditional en garde my feet cannot be at a 90 degree angle (more like 145 degrees). When I am on my toes, however, I can (correctly) "bounce" no problem.

[Allen Evans]

Hmmm...I think I see what you're talking about, though there is no requirement that feet in on guard be at 90 degrees. Some coaches still inisist on this, but generally the angle many coaches teach (in any weapon) is much less.

A