SN Qualifiers Petition

[CChang]

Dear All,

I'm currently fencing in the San Bernadino Division as a college student. However, I am registered with New York Metro as my 'home' division. Qualifiers for SN in the San Bernandino Division is soon and I was told that I could petition to participate in the San Bernandino Division despite being from New York Metro.

I tried to look for the forms on usfencing but after clicking all the links, I couldn't find it or perhaps I misread.

Is it possible for me to compete in the Qualifiers?

Regards,

[oiuyt]

You may only participate in the qualifier(s) for your registered division.

Changing division mid-season requires extraordinary permission from the Board (or the EC acting on behalf of the Board). It's hard to imagine such permission would be forthcoming based on the rationale presented in the OP.

Be aware that if you petition for qualification without competing in the Metro NYC qualifiers with the rationale that you were out of town attending school that it's explicitly listed as a reason for which appeals will be denied.

-B

[Purple Fencer]

You may only participate in the qualifier(s) for your registered division.

Changing division mid-season requires extraordinary permission from the Board (or the EC acting on behalf of the Board). It's hard to imagine such permission would be forthcoming based on the rationale presented in the OP.

Be aware that if you petition for qualification without competing in the Metro NYC qualifiers with the rationale that you were out of town attending school that it's explicitly listed as a reason for which appeals will be denied.

-B

Explain the rationale, please....that comes across as so much BS...a big steaming pile of it. You're punishing the fencer for getting an education.....you expect him to fly back 3000 miles to compete in a qualifier??

If he was registered in the San Bernardino Division but went to school at UC San Diego I could see telling him to make a 2 hour drive....but 3000 MILES?

If he's gone all the way across the country to further his education, changing divisions should be a no-brainer.

How is the fencer being served this way?

[oso97]

Explain the rationale, please....that comes across as so much BS...a big steaming pile of it. You're punishing the fencer for getting an education.....you expect him to fly back 3000 miles to compete in a qualifier??

If he was registered in the San Bernardino Division but went to school at UC San Diego I could see telling him to make a 2 hour drive....but 3000 MILES?

If he's gone all the way across the country to further his education, changing divisions should be a no-brainer.

How is the fencer being served this way?

This is not a new policy. Its been in existence for as long as I've been a fencing - I started as a college student, and I remember seeing it on the form. It was explained to me when I inquired that the fencer should have their division as the place they spend most of their time, in this case, school.

[Purple Fencer]

This is not a new policy. Its been in existence for as long as I've been a fencing - I started as a college student, and I remember seeing it on the form. It was explained to me when I inquired that the fencer should have their division as the place they spend most of their time, in this case, school.

An old, established policy doesn't make it a good one...in Cody's case, he didn't make the switch to the West Coast until well after he'd registered in NY....there needs to be some common sense here so the fencer can be served.

[prototoast]

An old, established policy doesn't make it a good one...in Cody's case, he didn't make the switch to the West Coast until well after he'd registered in NY....there needs to be some common sense here so the fencer can be served.

I believe, in general, the USFA is accommodating if you move to a new division mid-season, but the time to get that switched is when you move, not when it's qualifiers.

[CChang]

Well I only moved here for school recently (January). To be honest, I don't even think I've had one full academic calendar month of school yet since coming.

I wasn't aware that you could switch Divisions. Perhaps it is a major oversight on my part. Had I known I would have done so immediately, in fact, probably before I transferred. Qualifiers certainly prompted me to find out though I am not switching for the sole reason of competing in qualifiers. It would make sense to me to be part of a division which best suits my location

I guess it would also help to note that I do not have a car and the Qualifiers are held in an adjacent college less than 5 minutes walking distance. I'm not looking to switch divisions for the specificity of qualifying for SN rather. The competition happens to be one of the only times I have to compete in an organized tournament readily accessible by me.

[hello?]

I can't believe your coach in the Metro Division did not warn you about this when you moved. It's a well known fact -- and clearly stated in the rules.

[oiuyt]

Explain the rationale, please....that comes across as so much BS...a big steaming pile of it. You're punishing the fencer for getting an education.....you expect him to fly back 3000 miles to compete in a qualifier??

???

How does explaining what the policy says when requested constitute either a pile of BS or say anything about what I expect?

Cody has clearly been given incorrect information (that he can petition to compete in the qualifiers for a division other than the one to which he belongs). He questioned this advice. I pointed out the error, as well as provided additional information.

Continuing in that vein....

From the membership application:

Your division is determined by your place of residence, or by the location of your school or competition club. Unless otherwise specified, you will be assigned to the division associated with the preferred mailing address. The division specified on the application or to which you are assigned WILL BE THE ONLY DIVISION FROM WHICH YOU CAN QUALIFY for the Junior Olympic Championships and Summer National Championships.

(Emphasis in the original.)

From the Athlete Handbook:

Division and Section Affiliation

The Division that a member can declare is based on his or her residence, location of the school that member is attending, or location of club that the member will represent in USFA competitions. Each year a member must declare the Division affiliation for that membership year. That Division is then the one from which the fencer must qualify to the USFA National Championships and the Junior Olympic Fencing Championships. The member may request a change in Division if he or she moves to a new geographic location and notifies the USFA office of the new address and Division change request in writing. Members who are living or working for an extended period of time outside of the United States or active duty military can request "National" Division affiliation. Appeals on the basis of missing a Division qualifying competition due to going to school elsewhere will not be considered.

From the Operations Manual:

A fencer must identify to which Division the member will belong. A fencer may be a member of the Division:

• In which the fencer resides; OR
• In which the fencer’s club is located, OR
• In which the fencer is a resident student at a school (i.e., not a day student).

The Division for the member becomes the place from which the member can qualify for the Junior Olympic Fencing Championships and the associated qualifying competitions for the Summer National Championships. The Section in which the Division is located is the Section in which the member can compete to qualify for the relevant Summer National Championships competitions.

A fencer may change Division membership if the fencer moves to a place that is located in another Division. Such change will affect the Division and/or Section from which the fencer can then qualify for any National Championship tournament. A fencer, who resides at a school located in another Division, must decide when submitting the membership application whether to represent the Division where his/her home (residence) is located or the Division where his/her school is located. Once the choice is made it cannot be changed in that fencing season.

Looking through the applicable texts, it appears that the Board approval is specified for mid-season changing of club representation, but not division representation. The latter requires a move. A change in division representation can be requested, although I fail to find any mention of the process or whose approval is required. Note that this is not what the OP asked about, although it may accomplish the desired goal(s).

-B

[CChang]

Well I suppose the best method is if I just write to USFA. My membership was purchased in sometime of 2008(or 2007) and expires this year. If I am held to the Metro Division for three years, despite the fact that I transferred upon the last year, this past January, then so be it.

I guess it was a failure on my part to read all the necessary documentation. However I do find it a little discouraging if I'm not able to fence given my circumstance. It was not a masterminded plan to come to Claremont, CA and change my division so that I can compete in the qualifier to hopefully make it to SN. I am would gladly switch my Division if it is the sensible action to do so that I can fence. In this case it does. I did not transfer here until late January, even then I was unsure on whether or not I would be able to fence given the medical complications in my eye. It was not until February that I realized I could see again so quickly. Naturally, I wanted to continue a sport that I love. Unfortunately, I don't have a car and all competitions in Southern California are quite beyond walking distance. It happens to be that the Qualifiers are a 5 minute walking distance from my college at an adjacent college. I can careless if it was or was not a qualifiers - I just want to fence. It is one of the few and only competitions that I can travel to. Since I cannot compete unless I am in the division, I felt that the natural thing to do would be to switch divisions.

This was never about qualifying or not qualifying.
I just want to fence.

[mfp]

Why do people believe that BoD or EC approval is required to change Division membership?

Over the last few years, all that was typically required was that the member (or an officer of their new division) contacted USFA member services and asked that they be moved. Poof. Done.

Our division requires preregistration for qualifiers and checks the info well before the event. Fencers who aren't listed as being in our division are contacted before the event and directed to either the proper division's quals (there are 3 divisions around here) or are instructed to contact member services to see about changing their listed division.

Students new to the area change their division based upon one or more of either the location of their new school, the location of their new club, and/or where they're now living most of the year.

Once the National Office sends us an email stating that the fencer is now in our division, we OK them to fence in our quals.

It all been very sensible and reasonable.

[Purple Fencer]

???

How does explaining what the policy says when requested constitute either a pile of BS or say anything about what I expect?

It's a pile if there's no mechanism for situations like his...with his required quals being across the country. This is a case where a very good argument could be made for an immediate switch of divisions so he can at least fence in the quals...whether he actually goes or not is not the point...he should be allowed to switch divisions in HIS case...additionally, his presence in the qualifier might allow one more person to qualify...so the division members could potentially benefit.

If his residence division and his college are a reasonable distance apart, fine....but requiring him to go back to New York to fence in a qual is not reasonable by ANY stretch.

[MyrddinsPrecint]

Situation A: Fencer signs up for USFA in November in NYC where parents live, realizes in January that it will be easier (for whatever reason) to qualify for Nationals in CT, tries to get their division changed. ------>Unlikely to work.

Situation B: Fencer has a 3 year membership to USFA, moves across the country, Also has medical condition. -----> Worth trying, not guaranteed.


This is why Oiuyt specifically mentioned "It's hard to imagine such permission would be forthcoming based on the rationale presented in the OP." Given JUST the info in the OP, fencing in this tournament seemed unlikely. Given other information that has come up in other posts, it's somewhat more likely.

[oiuyt]

This is why Oiuyt specifically mentioned "It's hard to imagine such permission would be forthcoming based on the rationale presented in the OP." Given JUST the info in the OP, fencing in this tournament seemed unlikely. Given other information that has come up in other posts, it's somewhat more likely.

This.

Note that the OP did NOT include any mention of a move during the current season. The additional information opens a mechanism not available based upon the previously-presented scenario.

-B

[foibles]

Send an email to USFA. Provide your college address as your New Address. Also provide them with the new division to which you need to belong.

Should do it.

[Inquartata]

Sam---welcome to the I-hate-a-USFA-practice-about-which-I-can-do-nothing Club.

[hello?]

Another petition question.

A fencer who came in top-8 in Division 1 at Nationals but did not fence Div 1-A last year is theoretically not 'an automatic' for Div 1-A this year, right? If she can't attend Sectionals, would she have to petition to fence Div 1-A?

Do you have to wait till after Sectionals to petition or can someone petition in advance?

[oiuyt]

Another petition question.

A fencer who came in top-8 in Division 1 at Nationals but did not fence Div 1-A last year is theoretically not 'an automatic' for Div 1-A this year, right? If she can't attend Sectionals, would she have to petition to fence Div 1-A?

Correct.

Division I is not a qualifying path to Division IA.

Do you have to wait till after Sectionals to petition or can someone petition in advance?

The policies include a latest date to petition (within 5 business days following the competition and before the entry deadline), but I don't think actually precludes submission of the petition in advance. Petitions are submitted to Christine, so checking with her is not unreasonable to determine whether or not one has to wait until the qualifying competition has passed.

-B

[oso97]

Another petition question.

A fencer who came in top-8 in Division 1 at Nationals but did not fence Div 1-A last year is theoretically not 'an automatic' for Div 1-A this year, right? If she can't attend Sectionals, would she have to petition to fence Div 1-A?

Do you have to wait till after Sectionals to petition or can someone petition in advance?

Note that Sectionals is not the only qualifying path for DivIA these days. There are two more ROCs still on the schedule.

Jeff Wolfe Long Island Challenge
April 10-11, 2010 · Rocky Point, NY

Danny Bukantz Open
May 15-16, 2010 · Maplewood, NJ

A person who made top 8 at DivI should have no problem making top 10% at one of these .

[hello?]

A person who made top 8 at DivI should have no problem making top 10% at one of these .

Oh, I know! (She won the last Sectionals she entered...) She asked me why the policy would have been set up like this and I told her the USFA probably assumed she would not want to enter the silly thing!!!!

I did tell her that she probably would have no problem listing enough 'results' in her petition to show that she would have qualified had she entered.