Fencing.net You make the Call!! Sequence #3

[Bonehead]

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k80uCIOL6ug[/YOUTUBE]

I've opted to skip sequence #2 since the Sequence #1 thread was pretty strongly in favour of attack every time, regardless of hand movement. This renders Sequence #2 kind of moot, unless I can find an FIE ref to comment on it.

This sequence deals with foot tempo instead of just hand tempo.

Once again, I think it's important to see the referees ratings.

I'll start again.

Qualification: I'm a Canadian P with 12 years Fencing Experience

Action #1

Call: Attack in Preparation. Touche Right

Reasoning: There is a clear moment of hesitation from the left fencer. The fencer on the right has started his attack even before this moment of hesitation.

w/ Video?: I think this action is clear and I would make the same call with or without video.

[dramamine]

I disagree completely. The arm needs to be EXTENDING for the fencer on the right to be attacking. Halfway through his lunge the arm was EXTENDED, not EXTENDING. In order to do a correct attack the arm has to finish extending at the instant it arrives at the target, not before. Duh

.. just being a douche

[dramamine]

On second thought: comment resent as PM for appropriateness-purposes. lol


Out of guilt I will write a serious answer tomorrow, I promise.

[catwood1]

I think this video, more so than the other, NEEDS to be electric, with the lights. My reasoning for saying that is I'd like to know exactly when they are hitting.

Action 1 is a clear attack into preparation for ForR.
Action 2-4 looks like attack counter attack in favor of FotL, although lights would help.
Action 5: Attack from the right is no, counter attack from left arrives.*
Action 6: I see the exact same thing as 5, but I can't tell if he hits the first one. I'd need to see the lights. If FotR hits before his awkward squirm, I'd say his attack into preparation arrives. The opponent would b**** that he squirmed, but if he hit before that squirm started, it was his original attack that arrived.

I'm still a USFA 5, and I do some div 1 stuff...

*He had the attack into prep, but breaks off his attack and makes a squirming counter attack, which I see as a distinct and separate action.

[downunder]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k80uCIOL6ug

I've opted to skip sequence #2 since the Sequence #1 thread was pretty strongly in favour of attack every time, regardless of hand movement. This renders Sequence #2 kind of moot, unless I can find an FIE ref to comment on it..

It's not regardless of hand movement, it's to do with the actions of both fencers - not just the one who is 'attacking'.

I found sequence 2 on youtube and it looks like one fencer getting killed by compound attacks over and over.

I'll check out 3 asap.

[erooMynohtnA]

No ref rating, fenced 10 years, do some local reffing

#1 Attack from the right
#2 Attack from the left
#3 Attack from the left
#4 Attack from the left, but there appears to be a hitch in the footwork on full speed that disappears in slow mo.
#5 Attack from the left
#6 Attack from the right, no; attack from the left.

By the way, I like these threads a lot.

[Gav]

By the way, I like these threads a lot.

So do I but I would prefer to see it "on the box" so that we can see some lights too.

[Craig]

So do I but I would prefer to see it "on the box" so that we can see some lights too.

Agreed. But I can see these types of threads becoming a popular and regular feature here.

[Omar Bhutta]

USFA 2 in foil, 16 years exp.

#1 is preparation left, attack right.
#2-6 is attack from left. In each one, the fencer on the right makes a preparatory action into the the preparation made by left. I would simply call this "attack left."

In #5 and #6, fencer on the right covers target with the mask and should be penalized.

[epeemike81]

USFA 2 in foil, 16 years exp.

#1 is preparation left, attack right.
#2-6 is attack from left. In each one, the fencer on the right makes a preparatory action into the the preparation made by left. I would simply call this "attack left."

In #5 and #6, fencer on the right covers target with the mask and should be penalized.

This, on all counts.

-m

edit: except for being a 2. I'm only a 4.

[Zhais]

Haven't read the other replies yet...

Have a few years of experience fencing, looking into certifying myself as a ref once I have time/energy.

1) attack in preparation from the right arrives
2) AiP from right no (falls short before he retreats), attack from left arrives
3) AiP from right no (falls short before he retreats), attack from left arrives
4) AiP from right arrives. Just barely hits with the forward movement
5) AiP from right
6) AiP from right

[Superscribe]

Local reffing, and fencing for 7 years.

Action 1 is attack into prep for FOR. I may have given this in real time, i would have definately given this in slow mo.

Everything else is attack from the left, so long as the FOL turned his light on. I don't see how the sequence of lights matters.

[vivoescrimare]

As Omar (and earlier Catwood) said - FotR is making AN action into FotL's preparation. If, specifically in the case of 5 or 6 (can't recall which) the initial action had arrived (Which I don't think it did) the call would, potentially, be AiP right.

*Then you'd card him for covering target and award the touch left.

[Zhais]

Omar/epeemike, is it considered a preparation (fotr) because of the body evasion?

Am I correct in then assuming that any sort of body evasion during an attack stops the attack? I guess I never personally understood that. If the attack happens during the prep, and hand/weapon is still going forward during the evasion, why wouldn't it still be considered the attack?

[Superscribe]

I found sequence 2 on youtube and it looks like one fencer getting killed by compound attacks over and over.

It's FOL pulling his hand back mid lunge and FOR countering into it, over and over again.

[downunder]

It's FOL pulling his hand back mid lunge and FOR countering into it, over and over again.

Thus a compound attack, counterattack. Really not difficult stuff.

Sequence 3: first one is prep left, attack right, all the others are attack left. I've got a problem with the mask in the last two as well.

[Allen Evans]

Am I correct in then assuming that any sort of body evasion during an attack stops the attack? I guess I never personally understood that. If the attack happens during the prep, and hand/weapon is still going forward during the evasion, why wouldn't it still be considered the attack?

You can't have your cake, and eat it, too.

When someone is making an offensive action and attempting to avoid an attack at the same time, they are making a "counter-offensive" action, or, in popular phrasing, a "counter-attack".

[Zhais]

But it's such delicious cake

Well, I guess that's just more motivation to make the body evasion succeed instead of fail I guess. Turn on one light only and no issue.

Thanks for the explanation~

[vivoescrimare]

Except for the "He's covering with his mask" issue.

[edew]

I can see for #1 that it's still attack from the left. I'm not disagreeing with those here who gave #1 to the right. I think to make it for the right, right needs to start sooner and left needs to hold longer. However, modern refs (i.e., post 2007) are calling any slow action such as left's as preparation. But that's a preference differing among various referees. To be really clear, lights would help, and left should take an extra step or hold the arm bent a bit longer.