Yay! A creationist thread!

[jessicasimpson]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_rel_home_school_evolution

My favorite quote from the article:

The textbook delivers a religious ultimatum to young readers and parents, warning in its "History of Life" chapter that a "Christian worldview ... is the only correct view of reality; anyone who rejects it will not only fail to reach heaven but also fail to see the world as it truly is."

[I_luv_saber]

Just as some commentary from one who grew up in a private Christian elementary school and then home school, I agree that some of these stances are indeed taken by the books. Some of the books I was reading, for example, were pointing out that the Earth is quite young (something like 6,000 years, or whatever). But the thing is, even if they taught me those things that I consider now to be incorrect, it still gave me a better footing in most areas of education than public school does to many (and at a much higher cost per student).

Basically, while I agree this creationist stuff is silly, I don't think home schooling is. It gets a lot of bad PR that it really doesn't deserve IMO.

[Bayou Bum]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_rel_home_school_evolution

My favorite quote from the article:

The textbook delivers a religious ultimatum to young readers and parents, warning in its "History of Life" chapter that a "Christian worldview ... is the only correct view of reality; anyone who rejects it will not only fail to reach heaven but also fail to see the world as it truly is."

Caveat emptor:
"Those who do not believe that the Bible is the inspired, inerrant Word of God will find many points in this book puzzling," says the introduction to "Biology: Third Edition" from Bob Jones University Press. "This book was not written for them."

They have a choice as to what textbooks they choose to teach their children. I have more of an issue with some of the history textbooks that the government makes students use in government indoctrination schools.

If you really want a good discussion of this topic, you need Chase.

[jessicasimpson]

Caveat emptor:
"Those who do not believe that the Bible is the inspired, inerrant Word of God will find many points in this book puzzling," says the introduction to "Biology: Third Edition" from Bob Jones University Press. "This book was not written for them."

They have a choice as to what textbooks they choose to teach their children. I have more of an issue with some of the history textbooks that the government makes students use in government indoctrination schools.

If you really want a good discussion of this topic, you need Chase.

I thought the point of the article was that people who chose to homeschool their kids from a non evangelical standpoint did not have a choice, as almost all of the homeschool text books cater to the creationist crowd.

chase never led to good discussion. His posts were about 90% predictable. Let me give it a shot.

" Public schools have failed. Every one should be using these text books. Look at me, I go to an elite CHRISTIAN school, and I am starting at the greatest University (UT) in the history of the world."

[migopod]

I thought the point of the article was that people who chose to homeschool their kids from a non evangelical standpoint did not have a choice, as almost all of the homeschool text books cater to the creationist crowd.

chase never led to good discussion. His posts were about 90% predictable. Let me give it a shot.

" Public schools have failed. Every one should be using these text books. Look at me, I go to an elite CHRISTIAN school, and I am starting at the greatest University (UT) in the history of the world."

You forgot to randomly insult liberals without provocation.

[kapunga]

I thought the point of the article was that people who chose to homeschool their kids from a non evangelical standpoint did not have a choice, as almost all of the homeschool text books cater to the creationist crowd.

Not true. I could ask my mom if you want to know specifics. My sister was homeschooled as normal school and a competition level figure skating regimen do not mix well.

[jessicasimpson]

Not true. I could ask my mom if you want to know specifics. My sister was homeschooled as normal school and a competition level figure skating regimen do not mix well.

From the article:

Christian-based materials dominate a growing home-school education market that encompasses more than 1.5 million students in the U.S. And for most home-school parents, a Bible-based version of the Earth's creation is exactly what they want. Federal statistics from 2007 show 83 percent of home-schooling parents want to give their children "religious or moral instruction."
"The majority of home-schoolers self-identify as evangelical Christians," said Ian Slatter, a spokesman for the Home School Legal Defense Association. "Most home-schoolers will definitely have a sort of creationist component to their home-school program."
Those who don't, however, often feel isolated and frustrated from trying to find a textbook that fits their beliefs.


I am not making fun of all home schoolers, I agree with ILS, although my being from public school, I am sure I cant extort lunch money much better than him

[Hauptman]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_rel_home_school_evolution

My favorite quote from the article:

The textbook delivers a religious ultimatum to young readers and parents, warning in its "History of Life" chapter that a "Christian worldview ... is the only correct view of reality; anyone who rejects it will not only fail to reach heaven but also fail to see the world as it truly is."

What I find most interesting is the arrogant attempt to speak for the "Christian worldview". It's obvious to me that a large number, possibly a majority, of Christians believe that evolution exists (although created by God), and don't take the old testament literally.

Of course it's not surprising. Christians, Jews, Muslims, etc. fight amongst themselves as much as with each other.

[Fechter1]

If you really want a good discussion of this topic, you need Chase.

I admit, I LOL'd.

[Inquartata]

You forgot to randomly insult liberals without provocation.

Impossible.

In any event, it's always amusing to be told how to get to some place where the person giving directions has never been, and hasn't had the reliability of his directions confirmed.

[I_luv_saber]

From the article:

Christian-based materials dominate a growing home-school education market that encompasses more than 1.5 million students in the U.S. And for most home-school parents, a Bible-based version of the Earth's creation is exactly what they want. Federal statistics from 2007 show 83 percent of home-schooling parents want to give their children "religious or moral instruction."
"The majority of home-schoolers self-identify as evangelical Christians," said Ian Slatter, a spokesman for the Home School Legal Defense Association. "Most home-schoolers will definitely have a sort of creationist component to their home-school program."
Those who don't, however, often feel isolated and frustrated from trying to find a textbook that fits their beliefs.

I would be curious if there were any stats to back up the assertion made in the article. It certainly wouldn't surprise me if the majority were faith-based, and it also certainly doesn't surprise me that the majority of those involved are Christians. However, I'm not so sure the number of available textbooks for something other than that is so small. I mean, look how many regular ol' textbooks are in public schools... I'm sure that you could buy those or similar textbooks, wouldn't you think? (I don't know, actually, it just seems logical)

I am not making fun of all home schoolers, I agree with ILS, although my being from public school, I am sure I cant extort lunch money much better than him

I would like to clarify though, since I realized it could be read that way, that in my previous post I didn't mean to imply homeschooling is always better than public school. I just think it's a really good option for people who happen to be in a sub-par school district....

[kapunga]

I am not making fun of all home schoolers, I agree with ILS, although my being from public school, I am sure I cant extort lunch money much better than him

I didn't think you were, I was just pointing out that there are other options, and they aren't impossible to find. You can even find ones with curriculum and on call teachers.

[melensdad]

Basically, while I agree this creationist stuff is silly, I don't think home schooling is. It gets a lot of bad PR that it really doesn't deserve IMO.

Totally agree with you on this.

And I'd also point out that only a FRACTION of the Christians believe in the young earth theory, most Christian faiths embrace evolution and science, in fact it was the Catholics who developed the Big Bang Theory. It is also true that home schooling gets a bad rap because of a small minority of home schoolers but the reality, when you look at achievement scores, college acceptance, cultural studies, etc then you see that home schoolers are actually higher achievers and well adjusted. There are plenty of reasons for the virtual explosion of home schoolers (projected to reach 2 million soon) and much of the blame lies on our public school system.

[Empty Wallet]

I had all my schooling in a Catholic system -- so some would not count that as Christian.

We had a priest there who said that the 7 day creation was an arrogant human idea -- and that the bible story should be viewed as a parable.

Human's could not comprehend anything beyond their own realm, so had to apply their own measure of time to god. That was for those who took the 7 days as literal.

As a parable it is a creation story from which to learn, but for which the exact words do not have to apply.

[RebelFencer]

I had all my schooling in a Catholic system -- so some would not count that as Christian.

We had a priest there who said that the 7 day creation was an arrogant human idea -- and that the bible story should be viewed as a parable.

Human's could not comprehend anything beyond their own realm, so had to apply their own measure of time to god. That was for those who took the 7 days as literal.

As a parable it is a creation story from which to learn, but for which the exact words do not have to apply.

Catholics are Christians, I grew up in TN so I know the pain of uppity Southern Baptists.

But yeah, after watching bible camp (which I will admit is a very skewed and terrifying portrayal of some christians), it just shows how unprepared these kids can be for life. Homeschooling has the potential to ruin kids more than public schools. That said, there are a good amount of kids homeschooled by intelligent, capable parents who are fine. I don't think I really have much of a point to make beyond that statement since it seems we all agree.

[telkanuru]

Man, this forum is way less fun without trolls.

[erooMynohtnA]

Just as some commentary from one who grew up in a private Christian elementary school and then home school, I agree that some of these stances are indeed taken by the books. Some of the books I was reading, for example, were pointing out that the Earth is quite young (something like 6,000 years, or whatever). But the thing is, even if they taught me those things that I consider now to be incorrect, it still gave me a better footing in most areas of education than public school does to many (and at a much higher cost per student).

Basically, while I agree this creationist stuff is silly, I don't think home schooling is. It gets a lot of bad PR that it really doesn't deserve IMO.

While I can't speak to homeschooling, I went to Catholic school K-2 and then public school, and I think my education was much better at public school. However, my Catholic school didn't teach any young earth stuff.

[I_luv_saber]

I believe I saw a statistic once that American kids do well in comparison to other countries throughout elementary school, but afterwards start to slowly decline until the gap gets really large in later high school years. While I think there are a multitude of reasons for this, I think homeschooling acts as a good way for parents (and kids) to avoid that drop later on. As far as private schools, I can't comment on their effect in comparison to public schools since I was only in one for elementary (and as I noted, statistically it really tends not to matter IIRC)....

[Hauptman]

Man, this forum is way less fun without trolls.

QFT.... sad, but true.

[kapunga]

We had a priest there who said that the 7 day creation was an arrogant human idea -- and that the bible story should be viewed as a parable.

I'd say people who view it as a literal description of how the Earth came to be have the wrong idea entirely. It's not a science primer, it's more of a creed differentiating the Jewish religion (which is what it was at the time) from the multitude of competing polytheistic religions at the time (of which there were many). To quote the current Pope from before he was Pope: "Thus Scripture would not wish to inform us about how the different species of plant life gradually appeared or how the sun and the moon and the stars were established. It's purpose ultimately would be to say one thing: God created the world. The world is not, as people used to think then, a chaos of mutually opposed forces; nor is it the dwelling of demonic powers from which human beings must protect themselves. The sun and the moon are not deities that rule over them, and the sky that stretches over their heads is not full of mysterious and adversary divinities."

I've always found it kind of odd that certain Christian churches, when faced with how to interpret that section of the Bible, pick pretty much the least religiously significant interpretation and harp on that, especially when the simple message of "God made everything." is the only one repeated: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things came to be through him, and without him nothing came to be. (1 John 1:3 New American Bible)"

It's kind of ironic that the creation story is used to bash science, because if it's not taken as literally teaching science, it helps open the door for science. If you lived at the time and believed the Biblical creation story, a logical conclusion would be, "Oh hey, if the sun is not a god riding across the sky in a chariot, then I CAN study it's path and behaviour under the assumption it won't suddenly change." Maybe that's why so many monks did science.