Let Us Get Real

[Mo]

All these discussions on whether the format for meets should change and the possibility of changing the location of the USFA etc are fruitless but (somewhat interesting.)
Let's face facts.
The USFA IS the United States Fencing Association. They are there so the United States has the potential to become a contender both in the Olympics and with the World as a serious fencing power.
To do this they must get the people of said US to become fencing supporters. Eventually, there are hopes that the kids who are fencing today will eventually become the champions and medalists of the future.
They are not here so you guys can have a good weekend fencing and looking at female fencer's butts and boobs. If you want to be taken seriously you have to be a serious fencer and contender. If you just dabble don't expect to carry much weight in fencing.
Ain't gonna happen....

[Peach]

Mo, dear, it's an on-line discussion board. Pointing out that people on it behave like fifteen-year-olds is redundant.

[swordsen]

hmmm I would have to disagree. The USFA is there to represent the interests of it's members. And while to a great extent what you say covers many of the interests of it's members there are many other things it could be doing.
And should the USFA ignore the other interests of the members one of two things will happen. Either the disaffected will quit and form some new organization. (mass loss of membership would certainly not help the USFA in it's attempts to gain funding from the USOC) or (and potentially even more devestating) someone will be elected as chairman who wil listen to the other interests.

Considering how few peopel actually send in their proxies or show up and vote in person it would not take a very large group of people to completely change the focus of the organization.

[carlos]

Indeed, the purpose of the USFA is to promote top-flight fencing in the U.S. One way of doing that is to increase the pool of fencers. Getting more fencers means a greater range of innate talent and desire, increasing the chances of recruiting the very best athletes. But it also means swelling the ranks of fencers at all levels. These fencers contribute
dues to the USFA, buy videotapes from Edew and fencingfootage.com, and get a lot of pleasure from fencing. They
have non-fencing friends who learn about the sport.

With most sports, what bolsters the sport at one level helps it at another. The great success of women's soccer in
the U.S. has increased soccer's popularity in general and substantially promoted women's soccer at the local level.
There are various levels of involvement with a sport, from top competitor to dabbler, and even a "fan only" kind of
involvement. In most cases, they support one another.


So while there is no reason for male or female fencers to be ill-mannered, there are reasons to discuss what the USFA or similar organizations might do to increase interest in fencing by children, teens, and adults of all ages, as well as building viewership and financial support.

[DHCJr]

Carlos,

You gave the reason why Women's soccer has gained and that is the same way the USFA is trying to do, promote the highest level. When they won at International Competition, people became interested. Medals equal interest. Another example is Ice Hockey. Does everyone remember 1980.

If we were to win a Gold Medal or two at the next Olympics, which we have never done, do you think there might be some interest. That would be a Cinderella story.

[achilleus]

I'm not so sure a medal would change things.

Did fencing popularity/coverage increase when Westbrook won the bronze?

Has greco roman wrestling become a top tier sport thanks to Rulan Gardner?

The US women's soccer team was a hybrid venture. Mostly grassroots to get people involved. The team itself credits Nike with funding and equipment, allowing them to play full time and travel.

Nike of course saw a large untapped market.

I know the USFA's goal is to achieve a medal, and I think they are doing everything possible to achieve that goal. I just don't really believe that one medal is going to amke any significant changes for our sport.

[DHCJr]

So he won a bronze. Would there been the excitement if the hockey team in 1980 had won the bronze. I hate to say it, but to people from the U.S. there seems to be first place and others. No one cares about anything but Gold. I wish it was different, because that bronze was something and unappreciated, but until we change as a people or there is a Gold, I don't see us gaining popularity.

If the FIE could arrange it, they would give the U.S. that Gold, because it is U.S. television that drives the Olympics.

None of the companies that could come up with money for equipment are big. What is the cost of equipment for Soccer compared with Fencing? I don't see that happening. With Soccer, Nike had a lot smaller outlay for the potential gain.

Wrestling has an image problem. If there wasn't the WWE, I think they would have gotten respect.

You may be right that one medal won't do much, but I don't see anything else that has even that much chance. I wish I did.

[achilleus]

Originally posted by DHCJr
If the FIE could arrange it, they would give the U.S. that Gold, because it is U.S. television that drives the Olympics.

True, but all I see is a spike in the collective US consiousness, then fade to oblivion. Do we have any evidence that a gold will drastically change US Fencing? It may get us more money from the USOC, but will it be enough to sustain and improve upon the US results?

Originally posted by DHCJr
None of the companies that could come up with money for equipment are big. What is the cost of equipment for Soccer compared with Fencing? I don't see that happening. With Soccer, Nike had a lot smaller outlay for the potential gain.

The amount of money that Nike laid into soccer was obscene. And I'm not including the amount of marketing dollars they paid for commercials and custom made shoes. Supporting a soccer team is very costly.

Originally posted by DHCJr
Wrestling has an image problem. If there wasn't the WWE, I think they would have gotten respect.

And fencing has no image problems, right?

Originally posted by DHCJr
You may be right that one medal won't do much, but I don't see anything else that has even that much chance. I wish I did.

I haven't given it much thought, but no has explained why they think one gold medal will mean the success of fencing.

[DHCJr]

I see the USOC and IOC as being short-sited, which forces the USFA and the FIE to be short-sited also. I'm not saying the a Gold medal will make us popular, but when the IOC is ready to kick you out, you grab for straws and I believe that is what the FIE is doing and with the IOC and FIE pushing the USFA will go. The FIE and the USFA sees what a Gold medal did for other sports, so why not. They don't see anything else. Movies haven't done it, because your right that is our image problem.

I agree with you, but the USFA and FIE are fighting to stay an Olympic Sport. I have heard people say, that if Fencing is kicked out of the Olympics, then the Italian National Championship would become the World Championship, because they are the only ones who get most of their money from sources outside of the Olympics. I don't know if it is true, but I have heard it.

I also haven't heard of any ideas, besides a Gold Medal to gain popular support, only that the USFA should focus on the recreational fencer. But How? I also don't feel one Gold medal will be the patch, but I also haven't heard any other concrete idea.

I am hoping something could be found. Is there anybody out there has been sucessful in creating a large increase locally and maintained it over several years and have not lost it. How did you do it?

[Capt. Slo-mo]

Originally posted by Mo
They are not here so you guys can have a good weekend fencing and looking at female fencer's butts and boobs.

Ok, I'm SHOCKED! Here I thought my only purpose in going to the NACs was to open my wallet so the offspring fencing units could endlessly restock their supplies of FIE masks and lames and body cords and asymmetrical fencing shoes and event t-shirts, when all along there's been a floor show I've been missing? *sigh*

Originally posted by Mo If you want to be taken seriously you have to be a serious fencer and contender. If you just dabble don't expect to carry much weight in fencing.
Ain't gonna happen.... [/b]

Taken seriously by whom? The USFA? The puerile twits at fencingsucks.com? epeemike?
We've danced around it a bit, but let's give the USFA some clear indication of what we would like changed.
First, their customer service could use some help. They need to budget more money for fax machines/lines, and seriously consider adding an on-line component to the registration process. Perhaps the same person who fronts the on-line area could also take over responsibility for the website. How about a $5/year registration fee add on specifically earmarked to support mainstreaming the registrations/communications department?
Next...what do we want changed about the way the USFA supports/doesn't support the average recreational fencer--those that like to fence, but don't have a prayer of making a US team anytime this century? Is there something inherently wrong about the current NAC format? How can they address the problem of competent referees? I am a little foggy about how the USFA is allegeded to support the "elite" fencers over the rank and file. It seems to me that everyone goes to the NACs, the ones that do the best get points, the top point getters filter onto the national teams? Other than "performance awards" (a concept, that as a fiscally-suffering parent, I wholeheartedly endorse!), what could the USFA do to better represent the average fencer?

For any of these ideas, I would support a modest membership increase/registration increase, but only in the form of "designated" income streams targeted to identified areas, not just an addition to the general slush fund for which we have little oversight.

And how about some "Studs/Babes of Fencing" calendars for increasing public awareness? I'm sure the Veteran's calendar with our bulging stomachs hanging over our knickers will be a big big seller!

[Saber-Psycho]

Originally posted by Capt. Slo-mo
I'm sure the Veteran's calendar with our bulging stomachs hanging over our knickers will be a big big seller!

If you'll excuse me... I have the need to go regurgitate

[Inquartata]

Originally posted by Mo
Let's face facts. The USFA IS the United States Fencing Association.

Yes, exactly. The United States Fencing ASSOCIATION. A confederation of fencers, recreational and otherwise. Or at least that's what it was supposed to be; that was how it began, and it was the goals of the membership it was supposed to serve---ALL of its membership, not just those deemed worthy of licenses, travel, publicity, awards and general genuflections. Of course, all bureaucracies are subject to goal displacement, and to seduction by money, prestige and elitism. So it has gone from being the United States Fencing ASSOCIATION to, as you note, the UNITED STATES Fencing ( association )....

They are not here so you guys can have a good weekend fencing

In that case, we ought not to be REQUIRED to be paid members in order to "have a good weekend fencing", either. In other words, we ought not to be strong-armed into funding, at least partially, the grandiose aspirations of a bureaucracy which has chosen to pursue goals that are not ours---don't you think?

and looking at female fencer's butts and boobs.[/b]

Mo, I realize this aspect of life seems to get your goat, but really, we are human beings. Our aesthetic senses are one of the things which make us human. And it makes little sense to me to try to limit the application of those senses---to say, apply them to sunsets, to paintings, to sculpture, to mountains and flowers and so forth, but thou shalt not apply them to each other; thou shalt not find beauty in each others' forms and faces. Avert thine eyes...

Men like women, and, thank whatever powers there may be, women like men. Vive la difference, and all that!

If you want to be taken seriously you have to be a serious fencer and contender. If you just dabble don't expect to carry much weight in fencing.

Well...how many of the Ruling Eminences of fencing---the management of the USFA, USOC and FIE, fall into this category? Maybe some of them once did, a few still do, but I'd wager that most of them are neither serious nor contenders. Yet they wield more power than any World Champion, do they not? Their opinions and ideas are taken more "seriously" than those of any mere fencer. Their priorities are the ones which really count in fencing....

[swordsen]

The women's soccer team was not a cause of soccer sucess in the US, it was a result. One only need to look at the huge increase in grassroots soccer since the early eighties when only a few colleges and big HS's had soccer teams to now when every weekend the local rec center's fields are swamped with midget league soccer players.
Very few activities will grow from the top down.

[lochinvar]

What's wrong with butts and boobs? I'm sorry if you think yours aren't worth looking at, but is that my problem? And if you think that's the only reason I go to the salle or to tournaments, then you need to re-think your assumptions.

I don't follow the Olympics. I don't consider them important. I don't really care if the US wins a gold medal--or any medal, for that matter--in Olympic fencing or any other sport; that doesn't increase my paycheck or improve my quality of life in any material way whatsoever that I can see.

I pay dues to the USFA because I can't attend and compete in tournaments unless I do. End of list. It's just another entrance fee so far as I'm concerned, amortized over the number of tournaments I attend in any given year. The NACs are nice, but not really a part of my life; what would interest me as a fencer in the US is more, bigger, and better-run events at the local, division, and regional level; if the USFA could help with that, then the organization would garner more of my interest. Until then, it remains just a nebulous shape on the horizon that I notice only long enough to send my $40 once a year and then promptly forget about until next year.

No, I am not a "serious" contender or competitor; I do this primarily because I think it's fun. I play golf and bridge for the same reason. I could be better at all three if I devoted much more time, study, and effort to them; however, I choose to concentrate on other aspects of my life that I feel are more important and yield better returns. If some people have a problem with that...well, it's their problem, not mine.

And if I find butts and boobs worth looking at along the way while I'm pursuing other ends, that's just bonus.

[oiuyt]

The problem with ignoring the Olympics is that doing so DOESN'T mean the Olympics don't matter. Commonly held belief at the FIE level is that if the Olympics drop fencing that the world-wide population of fencers will drop (not a hard conclusion to make, loss of high-profile goal, loss of tons of funding,...). The thinking goes that the drop would be enough to tilt the economic balance against the equipment manufacturers who no longer have enough customers until they go out of business.

Even if you don't care whether or not the US wins medals in fencing, doing so MIGHT help fencing pull in sponsorship money which in turn will help keep it in the Games. Staying in the Games is also the rationale behind a host of other changes or proposed changes as we all know. If we lose our spot in the Games we could lose our sport completely. Not because many of us ever will participate in the games but because we would drop below a threshold of maintainability.

Whether or not the predictions are correct is debatable of course. This is not just an issue within the US, it's looking at international participation.

Olympic participation and/or results might not directly add to your paycheck, but the fact that fencing is IN the Olympics indirectly does through significantly lower equipment costs. Add to that the fact that the Olympics (via the USOC) pays more than it takes from the USFA and you get more from your national membership than you would without it.

-B :)

[lochinvar]

I respectfully disagree with the FIE, and with you if you subscribe to the scenario outlined above.

I don't know what the situation is in Europe, but here in the US I have never yet met anyone who took up fencing because it was an Olympic sport, nor do I know anyone who would stop fencing if it were dropped from the Olympics.

And though I don't have any numbers to back my intuition on this one, I'm betting that the majority of sales for vendors are not made to Olympic contenders or hopefuls. I'd wager a week's paycheck that the vast majority of equipment sales--again, here in the US--are to schools, clubs, and individuals whose purchases would be unaffected in any way by the absence of fencing from the Olympics.

I respectfully submit, therefore, that whether I ignore them or not the Olympics do not matter. Perhaps the world-wide population of fencers will drop if fencing loses its spot in the games, but I assert that it will not drop by any significant amount.

The absence of fencing from the games will not have the dire adverse consequences feared by the FIE because its presence in the games does not substantially influence whether people taking up fencing in the first place. Participation in the sport is unrelated to its place in the Olympics.

If you don't believe me, just ask the fencers you know whether they will discontinue the sport if the IOC drops it from the games.

In sum, the Emperor has no clothes.

[DHCJr]

Lochinvar, you missed the whole point of Oyuit argument.

"Whether or not the predictions are correct is debatable of course. This is not just an issue within the US, it's looking at international participation."

Maybe everyone in the U.S. will stay, but so what. During the Soviet era, there were more registered fencers in Moscow, then in all of the U.S. If most of the fencers were in the U.S., I'm sure we would have the manufacturers move here, but most of the fencers are in Europe. If the Olympic goes, so would they. Then because most of their customers are gone, so would the manufacturers. So maybe if the Olympics goes, you may not have a choice if you want to continue. The U.S. is nothing, but the FIE wants us to be something, because just maybe U.S. Television would become interested and if they were interested, then we keep the Olympics and the European Fencing.

Why do you think, Golf, Bowling and Ballroom dancing are being considered for the Olympics? Television, you may not watch, but there are those that watch on U.S. Television, which is what pays the bills for the Olympics, which pays for the USOC, which pays for the USFA. Nobody pays for nothing and Fencing is nothing to U.S. Television and the majority of the money (even those Nike ads on a earlier thread) comes from U.S. Television.

[earlie]

Well, yeah, I fink we gotta like promote fencing on the like TV it will demand a considerable effort; I believe the answer lies in the establishment of a promotions body within each naional fencing association funded by, like, them big companies like they do in, like, Germany. You know, I mean, like, Mercedes-Benz, and Siemens, like, they like sponsor the like you know, you know what I'me sain. It makes sence doesn't .. it!

[DHCJr]

Originally posted by earlie
Well, yeah, I fink we gotta like promote fencing on the like TV it will demand a considerable effort; I believe the answer lies in the establishment of a promotions body within each naional fencing association funded by, like, them big companies like they do in, like, Germany. You know, I mean, like, Mercedes-Benz, and Siemens, like, they like sponsor the like you know, you know what I'me sain. It makes sence doesn't .. it!

There is one small problem with your argument, if I understand your English, they already have fencing on Television, in Germany, France, England, etc. But that doesn't matter. Probably about 90% of the television money comes from the 'good ole USA' television. They don't need to promote to get what they already have.

As an aside, Mecedes-Benz does sponsor the German National Team.

[earlie]

You present quite a cogent argument, to which I can only add......twilly, twilly, twilly. OK?