Question About Saber Overglove

[springdon]

I have a question about saber overgloves/cuffs -- do they have to have a piece of cloth that goes over the back of the hand and has loop that goes around the fingers?

I heard someone say they are required for competition use, but I couldn't find that anywhere in the rule book and it seems like many of the people at world cups use a cuff that goes the to wrist but does not have an extra diamond of cloth with a finger loop.

[brtech]

They have to have a method for preventing the cuff from sliding off the wrist. A fingerloop does that. They don't need anything over the back of the hand.

[springdon]

Thanks, that is what I figured. But I just ordered a glove from absolute (Uhlmann) that is just a cuff with no loop or anything.

My guess is that it is because I need an XL, which they must not sell that many of, maybe it was an older model. Was this a rule change?

[SJCFU#2]

There was a running dispute between the armorers and European manufacturers regarding these cuffs. USFA armorers argued that something such as the finger loop was required to keep the overglove in place (hence it was required for all USFA events) while the manufacturers arguing that the elastic at the wrist was sufficient. The FIE eventually sided with the armorers and the language Brtech quoted was added to m.33.3, effective September 2008 (m.33.3).

It sounds like you might have gotten one of the older overgloves. At this point your choices are return it to Absolute (assuming you haven't used it) or add a finger loop so as to bring it into line with current requirements.

[DHCJr]

Thanks, that is what I figured. But I just ordered a glove from absolute (Uhlmann) that is just a cuff with no loop or anything.

My guess is that it is because I need an XL, which they must not sell that many of, maybe it was an older model. Was this a rule change?

Yes and no. It was poorly worded or even incomplete before 2008. In 2008 they added to the end of M.33

When a conductive overglove is worn, the overglove must contain a device which fixes the position of the overglove on the arm so that its position on the arm cannot be changed during the bout.

[downunder]

while the manufacturers arguing that the elastic at the wrist was sufficient. The FIE eventually sided with the armorers and the language Brtech quoted was added to m.33.3, effective September 2008 (m.33.3).

When a conductive overglove is worn, the overglove must contain a device which fixes the position of the overglove on the arm so that its position on the arm cannot be changed during the bout.

Guys I don't think this is true... I'm 99.9% sure I see a normal cuff (like this https://www.allstar.de/index.php?cPa...d2faef44ae8219) used at FIE events.

My reading of it is that a tighter elastic lining would be a suitable device.

[DHCJr]

Guys I don't think this is true... I'm 99.9% sure I see a normal cuff (like this https://www.allstar.de/index.php?cPa...d2faef44ae8219) used at FIE events.

My reading of it is that a tighter elastic lining would be a suitable device.

I have seen them to and I have seen them failed. The problem is unless they were tight enough to cut off circulation I can see where they could be moved during a bout. Especially between bouts. Just pull.

Yes the referee might see it, but where is it in the rules where you can't adjust your clothing. Suppose your underwear was riding up.

Considering it is so easy for a referee or Armorer to fail it and it is so easy to make it legal, it would be best to sew on an old shoe string and then you have no worries.

Just measure first.

Now you notice I stated a shoestring, not elastic. Let us look further at the Allstar overglove. Does it fix the position of the overglove? Could you have it in one place one time and somewhere else the next time you fence?

[Inquartata]

Yeah, but the finger loops/palm strap on a lot of manchettes are elastic. I've never had one failed because of that. But you could pull a loose one of those up your arm, too.

Plus, if a referee is not looking for it you can just wear the manchette with the finger loops/palm strap off. I used to do this with the finger loop ( it had no palm strap ), and had exactly one referee catch it over the space of 3 or 4years of tournaments. ( Note, I did it because wearing the finger loop actually made the thing ride too far down my arm, and the cloth part that crossed the back of the hand was tight enough to hold it in place. )

For that matter, you could make that finger-loop so long that it didn't really fix the manchette in place. The armorer would be unlikely to spot that unless the fencer was wearing it at the table.

But I still think that the Ivan Lee method is the best.

[Wetmelon]

Plus, if a referee is not looking for it you can just wear the manchette with the finger loops/palm strap off.

I started doing this because I can't get a manchette with a long enough finger loop that it doesn't pull half way down my hand, and refs honestly don't care or notice. (I tuck it under the manchette).

[Inquartata]

Helpful hint: If you ever get Mike Eskin as ref, use the poxy thing. Spare yourself a fruitless argument.

Most refs don't look, or care if they notice. IMO it doesn't really affect things unless one is actively trying to cheat by pulling it up the arm. And if one is inclined to do that, one can still find a way to do it, loop or no.

And after all, at best you can gain an inch or two of "target shrinkage" on a moving target. That is not going to make a difference against the vast majority of opponents. IMO it's nothing to worry about, but it's still best to have the loop there in case a ref makes an issue of it. ( I have had the loops tear off manchettes, or break. Using them that way is a risk, albeit a small one. )

[TrojanMD]

Note to self - check Inq's manchete the next time he's in my pool..

[Inquartata]

Hah hah, I have switched to glove-with-lame-cuff.

[Wetmelon]

I can't open my palm fully with the elastic, so it's really uncomfortable for a tournament :/

[fencerbill]

Íf you have short arms and long sleeves like I do, just put a finger loop on the Lame sleeve. I usually bring it to the referee's attention before my first bout and it has always been allowed. Up to and including USFA Nationals and several Vets Worlds. (Including Mike Eskin.)

[MyrddinsPrecint]

Íf you have short arms and long sleeves like I do, just put a finger loop on the Lame sleeve. I usually bring it to the referee's attention before my first bout and it has always been allowed. Up to and including USFA Nationals and several Vets Worlds. (Including Mike Eskin.)

Without significant alteration other than just the finger loop, that strikes me as a fairly easy entry path for a blade..... Not that that whole area isn't a weak spot anyway, but I prefer to have an extra layer of fabric there anyway, and prefer to fence others who have the extra fabric there, even if it's just a mental thing....

[fencerbill]

Entry to what? You are still outside of the glove cuff and the jacket.

Without significant alteration other than just the finger loop, that strikes me as a fairly easy entry path for a blade..... Not that that whole area isn't a weak spot anyway, but I prefer to have an extra layer of fabric there anyway, and prefer to fence others who have the extra fabric there, even if it's just a mental thing....

[Inquartata]

And if you're wearing a manchette, that same "entry" is still there...

[Purple Fencer]

And if you're wearing a manchette, that same "entry" is still there...

But if you're wearing a manchette with the non-conductive back of the hand 9thr space that used to be target), it cuts down on the chance of a blade going up under the cuff itself.

[bigdawg2121]

And if you're wearing a manchette, that same "entry" is still there...

If you are wearing it properly then the glove goes on top of the lame. The overglove lies on top of the glove.

[brtech]

Despite downunder's observation that fingerloops may not be needed:

a) They are required at USFA events. We train armorers to check for them. I can't guarantee they all will.

b) At Worlds in Antalya, they were required. This may have had something to do with Dan being a SEMI rep, but regardless, they were required.