Brown Fencing at risk?

[oiuyt]

From Facebook:

Now more than ever, Brown Fencing needs your support!

In light of a recent conversation between Lisa Pantel, parent of a current
fencer, and Steve King, who is the Executive Director of the Brown
University Sports Foundation (BUSF), an update on the current situation is
in order.

One important preface to this message is that Steve King advised Lisa that
the extent of his knowledge is limited to the ORC report, which can be found here <http://www.brown.edu/Administration/economy/>, and that he is not part of the group that will determine if there will be any cuts to the varsity sports program at Brown.

In his opinion, factors that might be considered in determining, which, if
any, varsity teams are cut include:

• Past fundraising success
• Alumni participation rate
• Athletic success
• Financial implications of eliminating the team
• Extent of Ivy and NCAA sponsorship of the team
• Facilities used by the team
• Title IX impact.

He feels that our best course of action would be to *meet or surpass our
$30,000 annual goal and increase alumni participation.* Achieving these
goals would of course not guarantee anything. He feels that offering
donations contingent on the continuation of the program would be
counterproductive.

Please remember! *Final recommendations will not be made until August 2010 and no major changes will be enacted until May 2011,* thus money donated to the annual fund would not be wasted.

*In summary, it is not known what the actual risk to the fencing program is
but I feel that our best chance at reducing any potential risk of
elimination is to meet or exceed our $30,000 annual goal and increase the
rate of alumni participation. Please give now.* At this time only $6,800
has been raised towards our $30,000 annual goal. We need to act quickly!

Gifts to Brown Fencing can be made in one of two ways:

(a) Check - payable to Brown University Sports Foundation (Box 1925, Providence, RI 02912)

*OR*

(b) an online credit card gift, both one time or recurring, can be
made here<https://gifts.development.brown.edu/Brown/>.

In either case, please specify that your gift is intended for the benefit of
the Fencing Team. You can do this if you make an on-line gift by way of a
check-off on the website.

Please remember that company matches can double a contribution. To find an employer that offers a matching gift program click here <http://www.matchinggifts.com/brown/> and type in the company name.

I hope that your memories of your experience on the Brown fencing team are as positive as mine. I hope that you, like me want to help provide the next generation of Brown fencers with a similar, if not better, experience. As always, your support is greatly appreciated. If you would like to be more involved in fundraising efforts please let me know. If you have any
questions, do not hesitate to contact me.

- Ruth
(ruth.b.schneider@gmail.com)

Skimming quickly through the linked ORC Report, the applicable section appears to be:

Charge

The Athletics Organizational Review Team was charged with reviewing the current structure of Athletics and developing recommendations that achieved combined savings or revenue enhancements of $1,000,000. There are currently 110 full‐time equivalent staff positions in this unit, with a total budget of $13.1M.

<SNIP>

Findings and Recommendations

The Athletics and Physical Education budget is funded approximately 50% by annual gifts, revenue, and endowment payout, and 50% by University appropriations. The largest portion of the budget funds 37 varsity teams. Brown has the third largest commitment to Division I sports in the Ivy League, but also the smallest budget and the smallest administrative staff in the League. The Team considered reductions in all areas of the program, including varsity and club sports, staffing, operating expenses, team travel, promotion and marketing, recreation and fitness, as well as incremental revenue opportunities from fundraising and fees.

The recommendations of the Team are to:

• Explore the extent to which changes in the number and mix of varsity sports programs could strengthen the overall varsity program at Brown. The Team concluded that the current balance between program and program support (i.e., budget and staffing) is unsustainable. The Team recommends that an in‐depth study be undertaken to determine a proper size and scope of the program at Brown in order to provide a stronger experience for student athletes, and that the study process be inclusive as well as expeditious. The committee that undertakes this study should be drawn broadly from students, faculty, and staff and should plan to consult key stakeholders, such as the Advisory Council on Athletics and the BUSF.

• Reduce operating expenses by $100,000. This will be achieved through the elimination of all printed media guides for varsity programs, renegotiation of event staffing and security costs for athletic events, and reductions in game expenses if some varsity programs are eliminated at the conclusion of the exploration recommended above.

• Reduce administration/staff expenditures by $200,000. With the smallest administrative staff but the third largest program in the Ivy League, Brown’s sport‐to‐administrator ratio is a complete outlier. While reluctant to reduce the staff size, the Team recognized that the administrative staff would need to take some judicious cuts in order to reach the target and to avoid placing the entire burden on possible program elimination and the student experience. The Director of Athletics would work with Human Resources to identify an optimal staffing plan, but the Team anticipates a centralization of management of varsity sports programs, decreased levels of administrative support, establishment of unpaid internships in targeted administrative areas, and a lower the number of incremental staff (relative to originally planned) in the new aquatics/fitness center.

No specific athletics programs are named in the ORC Report (or at least not in the Executive Summary linked).

-B

[prototoast]

I guess I should interject a few comments here.

Obviously, as someone who cares deeply about Brown fencing, that report is cause for concern. Brown fencing was such a hugely positive experience in my life, and I want that to continue for each successive generation of Brown student. Unfortunately, the report is pretty reasonable. For the number of sports offered, Brown's facilities and personnel are stretched thin. This allows the university to provide opportunities to a great many athletes, but the way things look right now, they simply do not have the money to maintain the status quo, or improve on the existing sports. While no official decisions have been made yet (and off the record, no one will confirm anything either), when tough budget decisions have to be made, a non-revenue sport with a low profile like fencing makes a natural target.

So, like everything, the difference between a fencing team and no fencing team will probably come down to money. I know I'll be increasing my donation this year, and I would urge anyone else who would like to see the Brown fencing team continue to exist to make some small donation. Even if it's just $5, showing that there are numbers in support of the fencing team could make the difference for the team's future.

http://www.sportsfoundation.brown.ed...annualUse.html

Finally, I know we are all fencers here, and fencing is our top priority, but I would like to remind you that there are other sports in jeopardy here as well. Sports that are just as important to the people that play them as fencing is for us. I understand that the university's resources are scarce, but I would hate to see fencing preserved at the expense of another sport. I know we as fencers can't do everything, but if you are concerned about Brown fencing's future, try to keep in mind the athletes, families and alumni of other sports that might be eliminated as well.

[seltzerwater]

For any potential college candidate or parents looking for colleges on behalf of their child, I think this warrants your attention. More and more colleges/universities are looking for ways to cut costs. Can we, as a fencing community persuade Brown fencing to look elsewhere to reallocate spending to save fencing? It seems every month we are reading a thread about a college fencing program possibly on the chopping block or being extinguished.

How do we contact Brown to tell them not to put fencing at risk and express our concerns about losing such a dynamic sport from the sports curriculum? (email address ? Anyone know?) For those that are not in a position to contribute money an email might go a long way.

This may not be the college that your son/daughter attends or considers attending, but the decision to cut fencing at Brown may have an impact down the road on how it relates to the college you ARE applying to. If there continue to be cuts to college fencing programs will you be fencing once you get to college?

We should be building up the fencing programs, not eliminating them.

[epeemike81]

He feels that our best course of action would be to *meet or surpass our
$30,000 annual goal and increase alumni participation.* Achieving these
goals would of course not guarantee anything. He feels that offering
donations contingent on the continuation of the program would be
counterproductive.

Sounds a bit like a shakedown to me...

"Give us lots of no strings attached money, and it MIGHT save the program." Can you say Rainmaker?

Don't get me wrong, I think donations are absolutely the best solution to ensure the program's continued existence, but I'd damned well make them explicitly targeted donations. Otherwise, there's no incentive to keep the program.

-m

[heretic]

College Fencing programs have become a major factor in motivating parents to spend big bucks of kiddie fencing, which has directly contributed to our international successes. If NCAA programs continue to be cut, eventually the sport will no longer exist at the University level. IMO, this would be a disasterous loss for American fencing.

I would especially urge all Brown alum to get involved and help build an endowment for the program. Ultimately, that is the only way to insure its continued survival.

[prototoast]

Sounds a bit like a shakedown to me...

"Give us lots of no strings attached money, and it MIGHT save the program." Can you say Rainmaker?

Don't get me wrong, I think donations are absolutely the best solution to ensure the program's continued existence, but I'd damned well make them explicitly targeted donations. Otherwise, there's no incentive to keep the program.

-m

I think we all worry about that. If fencing is to be cut, it will not be cut before next season, so donations made to the annual fund targeted towards fencing will at least go to benefit the fencing team for one more season. Certainly we would much prefer the university to come out and say "raise X dollars by the end of the fiscal year, and we won't think about cutting fencing for at least 10 years" but unfortunately we don't have that luxury.

[Mac A. Bee]

...showing that there are numbers in support of the fencing team could make the difference for the team's future http://www.sportsfoundation.brown.ed...annualUse.html...I would hate to see fencing preserved at the expense of another sport.

My alma mater's booster club skims the first $50 of every donation, i.e. donations less than $50 go totally to the boosters, but returns very little in terms of facilities (the team's practice time gets changed often and recently, a curtailment attempt), trainer and publicity support. Bears should contribute directly to the team with a note to the Sports Foundation.

As to sympathy for other sports - do you think football and basketball worry about fencing? Look to the "Rutgers 7" for ideas to jointly promote "minor" sports. They haven't been successful in restoring the Knights' club to team status, but at least they've kept the discussion going.

As an absurdity, a Knight transferred to the Bears when the Knights lost their team status. Where will he go now? The Stanford Cardinals are also fighting for their existence.

[hello?]

As an absurdity, a Knight transferred to the Bears when the Knights lost their team status. Where will he go now?

Totally independent from the subject of this thread, I would guess he will graduate in May.

[roxiered]

As to sympathy for other sports - do you think football and basketball worry about fencing? Look to the "Rutgers 7" for ideas to jointly promote "minor" sports. They haven't been successful in restoring the Knights' club to team status, but at least they've kept the discussion going.

As an absurdity, a Knight transferred to the Bears when the Knights lost their team status. Where will he go now? The Stanford Cardinals are also fighting for their existence.

The bigger picture is if College Fencing continues to disband teams what will be left of College Fencing? If fencing teams from exclusive universities like Brown and Stanford are having issues and are putting fencing on the chopping block where will that ultimately leave the rest of the college fencers? Is the writing on the wall for college fencing? Any other college students or parents concerned?

[pillow]

The bigger picture is if College Fencing continues to disband teams what will be left of College Fencing? If fencing teams from exclusive universities like Brown and Stanford are having issues and are putting fencing on the chopping block where will that ultimately leave the rest of the college fencers? Is the writing on the wall for college fencing? Any other college students or parents concerned?

You are probably correct in that NCAA fencing is in deep danger. In a few years, it will likely become the exclusive playground for the (relatively) well funded fencing universities--OSU, PSU, UND, St. John's--with the occasional Ivy thrown in for variety. If current teams have trouble surviving, where do we think all of our junior fencers are going to go in the next 5-10 years? Certainly not to NEW programs.

The future is probably going to be university/college club fencing.

[seltzerwater]

You are probably correct in that NCAA fencing is in deep danger. In a few years, it will likely become the exclusive playground for the (relatively) well funded fencing universities--OSU, PSU, UND, St. John's--with the occasional Ivy thrown in for variety. If current teams have trouble surviving, where do we think all of our junior fencers are going to go in the next 5-10 years? Certainly not to NEW programs.

The future is probably going to be university/college club fencing.

I am in agreement with you. With fencing growing in popularity at the local level, I for one never expected to see fencing reduced at the college level. If anything I expected it to be expanded. So I find this very disturbing that college fencing is being downsized.

[MyrddinsPrecint]

Everything at the college level is being downsized... at the moment. Colleges and universities are looking to decrease across the board. Faculty size. Library hours. Oh, not enrollment. Unless they're a higher class institution with fixed class size, they're looking to up that, somehow. They're not trying to cut fencing because fencing is getting smaller (although on the West Coast, that's definitely a huge factor). They're looking to cut it because they're looking to cut ANYTHING.

Some day the economy will grow. At that point, Endowments will grow again. Athletic Directors that want bigger budgets, staffs, and promotions will want to Do Things. So the best thing we can do until then is to keep the NCAA teams we have, and keep growing the Club Teams we have.

Smith College Fencing has a commitment from the Athletic Administration that, if they want it, they will be the very next NCAA sport at Smith. Other teams may want to seek a similar commitment now, when ADs think it sounds pretty and costs nothing. While it's not very binding, perhaps by the time the economy is actually better, they'll have said it and thought about it enough times that they'll actually consider doing it.

[pillow]

Everything at the college level is being downsized... at the moment. Colleges and universities are looking to decrease across the board. Faculty size. Library hours. Oh, not enrollment. Unless they're a higher class institution with fixed class size, they're looking to up that, somehow. They're not trying to cut fencing because fencing is getting smaller (although on the West Coast, that's definitely a huge factor). They're looking to cut it because they're looking to cut ANYTHING.

Some day the economy will grow. At that point, Endowments will grow again. Athletic Directors that want bigger budgets, staffs, and promotions will want to Do Things. So the best thing we can do until then is to keep the NCAA teams we have, and keep growing the Club Teams we have.

Smith College Fencing has a commitment from the Athletic Administration that, if they want it, they will be the very next NCAA sport at Smith. Other teams may want to seek a similar commitment now, when ADs think it sounds pretty and costs nothing. While it's not very binding, perhaps by the time the economy is actually better, they'll have said it and thought about it enough times that they'll actually consider doing it.

I'm not at all as sure about this. If we are making predictions based on an economic model, the problem with varsity fencing will be similar to a "jobless recovery." The recession will eventually end, but the lost jobs will probably never fully recover. The hundreds of billions lost by college endowment funds will be used for the restoration of faculty positions and rehabilitation of the physical facilities. Never for the creation of new, non-revenue earning sports like varsity fencing. Only clubs.

The great irony in all of this is that more and better fencers are being turned out every year by all our USFA clubs, a great regional youth system, and more competitions than ever, (probably due to FRED).

There will likely not be enough high level varsity programs for the best of our juniors, much less those at the bottom of the points list.

If I were starting a fencing club, I would open it in an area where a college varsity team is in danger of being cut.

[MyrddinsPrecint]

I'm not at all as sure about this. If we are making predictions based on an economic model, the problem with varsity fencing will be similar to a "jobless recovery." The recession will eventually end, but the lost jobs will probably never fully recover. The hundreds of billions lost by college endowment funds will be used for the restoration of faculty positions and rehabilitation of the physical facilities. Never for the creation of new, non-revenue earning sports like varsity fencing. Only clubs.

So what you're saying is that you think that the NCAA will only shrink, permanently, forever, for the rest of history, other than in football and basketball?

Well then, why bother keeping the NCAA teams we have at all? Or, at the very least, what's wrong with the strategy of keeping the fencing clubs as the strongest of the pack of the club teams at each school where there are club teams?

I think you're partially right in that that it will be a very long time before Athletic Departments are adding NCAA sports again. I don't think it will be never.

[telkanuru]

I am in agreement with you. With fencing growing in popularity at the local level, I for one never expected to see fencing reduced at the college level. If anything I expected it to be expanded. So I find this very disturbing that college fencing is being downsized.

Oh goodie. The future of college fencing is in the hands of the USACFC. I shudder in horror.

[hello?]

The great irony in all of this is that more and better fencers are being turned out every year by all our USFA clubs, a great regional youth system, and more competitions than ever, (probably due to FRED).

There will likely not be enough high level varsity programs for the best of our juniors, much less those at the bottom of the points list.

The truth of the matter is that this is the case with most other sports. MOST kids who play soccer or tennis or football, for example, don't end up playing in top varsity teams at college. What's sad is that one of the reasons why fencing is (was?) 'special' is (was?) that you could potentially do just that...Even if you were not an Olympian or not even on the senior or junior points list, you might end up fencing for the varsity team at Brown or Columbia or Temple or Princeton or Penn State or Brandeis or BC or whatever. How cool is (was?) that?

[gladius]

College Fencing programs have become a major factor in motivating parents to spend big bucks of kiddie fencing, which has directly contributed to our international successes. If NCAA programs continue to be cut, eventually the sport will no longer exist at the University level. IMO, this would be a disasterous loss for American fencing.

I would especially urge all Brown alum to get involved and help build an endowment for the program. Ultimately, that is the only way to insure its continued survival.

I agree with your post entirely. I would like to add that what is desperately needed is a proactive campaign and effort on the part of the USFA with all colleges with fencing programs to prevent as much as possible these cuts.

Without or with a diminished role of college fencing programs the USFA will not continue with the international successes which means that the USOC support for the USFA, small as it is, will get smaller or disappear.

Yes alumni and parents support is important but it is incumbent on the USFA and its leaders to tackle this very serious problem.

Of course, I'm not holding my breath...

[pillow]

The truth of the matter is that this is the case with most other sports. MOST kids who play soccer or tennis or football, for example, don't end up playing in top varsity teams at college. What's sad is that one of the reasons why fencing is (was?) 'special' is (was?) that you could potentially do just that...Even if you were not an Olympian or not even on the senior or junior points list, you might end up fencing for the varsity team at Brown or Columbia or Temple or Princeton or Penn State or Brandeis or BC or whatever. How cool is (was?) that?

Unfortunately, the chances of fencing varsity for the teams you mention above, and other schools, have been fading for some time anyway. We are just turning out too many good juniors. The loss of more teams only adds to the problem for those who would be "walk-ons."

[sheck]

I agree with your post entirely. I would like to add that what is desperately needed is a proactive campaign and effort on the part of the USFA with all colleges with fencing programs to prevent as much as possible these cuts.

Without or with a diminished role of college fencing programs the USFA will not continue with the international successes which means that the USOC support for the USFA, small as it is, will get smaller or disappear.

Yes alumni and parents support is important but it is incumbent on the USFA and its leaders to tackle this very serious problem.

Of course, I'm not holding my breath...

It all comes down to money and internal contacts especially at the Div1 level. Throw a few million $$$ at a AD and you might see results (become the T-Bone Pinkens of fencing).

[hello?]

Unfortunately, the chances of fencing varsity for the teams you mention above, and other schools, have been fading for some time anyway. We are just turning out too many good juniors. The loss of more teams only adds to the problem for those who would be "walk-ons."

The likelihood of making a varsity team at any school varies from year to year (Take Columbia -- who would have said even months ago that they would have had room for one more foilist at the Ivy's??? For as long as I have been following college fencing -- which, granted, is not that long -- they have been one of the few schools who qualifies more people than they can actually send to NCAA championships!!!). But I am in total agreement that the loss of more varsity teams is a very, very bad thing for fencing and that we should do everything we can to keep them on the roster. Other than financial contributions, I am not quite sure how one can.